well be careful....there's alot of truth mixed with error out there. Like Cleanliness next to godliness is NOT a biblical principle. In fact remember the Pharisees making a big deal out of one NOT washing his hands and Christ said..."it's not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out."



Well I just did hillwork about two hours ago. It's hot and humid here so it was hard to breathe going up that .4 dirt hill. I've got a big 10K on Saturday that brings in the Ethiopians and Kenyans among other world class runners. I may blog about this soon....stay tuned.



Now this is a subject, I'm quite familiar with. I've studied and been involved in Seders and as far as I know it's always been in the home as well. I can't think of any instance where it was held in a Temple. Even Christ rented an upper room for the last Passover he celebrated before the crucifixtion.



From what I understand the people were basically forced to buy the pre-approved lambs for quite a price. If they brought their own, they could be turned away and that would be devastating for them coming all that way with their lamb for nought.



come on Sodaiho...he had the men in the temple amazed..."they found him in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors both hearing them and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. And when they saw him they were amazed..." Luke 2.

He was NOT like the other male children. We read many times how people were astonished at his words....almost like he knew the scriptures by heart. He did.



all one has to do is read the four gospel accounts to see quite clearly no collusion is involved. In fact, many believe they see contradictions...but if you look really carefully they are not contradictions either. So it's funny you say they got together to get their stories lined up, because most see the opposite.

Hope you had a good speedwork Sodaiho. Physical exercise like what we do in running helps keep the mind sharp...wouldn't ya say?

SoDAiho posts:

Yes, this was the time of Passover. I know this because the Bible tells me so in St.Jn. 2:13. "And the Pasch of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem." Granted at this time there were many people there from all over the region and yes, they travelled with their sheep and oxen, etc. The point is these animals and the cacophony of them and the traders dealings were not supposed to be in the Temple court area.




Historically, it is certain that Christ really lived, really claimed to be God, proved that claim by His supreme command over all laws of nature established by God, taught the Christian religion, and obliged man to accept that religion.

What you say here is nothing but pretended human reasoning. You have not studied well enough the solid evidence for Christianity. Your doubts are due to defective information and reasoning.

I will be the first one to say that the fact that someone believes a religion true does not prove it right. It only proves that he thinks it right. The one is right though who can prove his belief to be solidly grounded. A comparative study of religions proves that Christianity alone has demonstrative evidence of its divine origin.

Also human reason will never invent a more ethical system than that prescribed for all men by the Author of all justice. It's no fairy tale or myth So Daiho. In the case of Catholicism which is the belief system our Lord Jesus Christ taught, the Church tells us to avoid sin like the plague. To be strictly temperate, chaste and pure. To practice humility, yet to possess the courage of the Saints in resisting all evil inclinations and overcoming obstacles to their sanctification. To be strictly just and truthful in their relations both with God and their fellow man. to be faithful for life in their duties in marriage, to love and worship God becasue He is God and not merely because they feel like doing it.

Catholic ethics perfect all that is noble and culminates in that supreme charity (love) which thinks no evil and much less utters it. When men have come to this standard, then it will be time to speak of a more ethical system. When they do attain it, they will have attained the full truth. To Catholics of course, all this is clear by the very gift of faith.

True Christian faith cannot lead one into error. We prove that God has said a thing and believe it becasue He said it. Doubt would be possible only could God be deceived or deceive mankind. But He could not. He knows all things, and is Truth itself. Also He has given abundant external signs to confirm His Revelation.

Highly intellectual men do accept the doctrines of Christianity as certain. Being highly intellectual, they have not done so without profound investigation of the reasonable grounds for their position. ANd knowing that such men are convinced, it is not highly intellectual conduct to reject as legends and fairy tales the doctrines they accept, without making a similiar investigation.

Revealed truths known only to God must be above ordinary human thought. Prove to me any given doctrine to violate correct principles of reason, and I shall cease to believe in it at once.




Oh, SoDaiho, you are the one totally boxed up----like Cheerios!

Do well! I have a 5k on Saturday morning smack in the middle of a Zen retreat.



Yes, I can see this would be disheartening. Yet, I can see parallels in any organized religion, including those Christian. We wouldn't want just any robe in the choir, would we?



KFC, you only have the texts written by believers to affirm this. In all of the extensive writings of the rabbis, not a word of their amazement. The Talmud is chock full of passionate debate, often including those far from orthodoxy. I see no reason if Jesus were in any real sense persuasive that his figure would not have been recorded or at least mentioned. Moreover, we often have young ones in our Temple (both Jewish and Zen Buddhist) who amaze us with their understanding...sometimes this amazement is a result of their brilliance with Torah or Dharma and sometimes at their sheer audacity and disrespect.

This is the problem. When we use our own sacred texts to support our arguments with those who do not see those very texts as sacred, it creates a real credibility problem. The strength of the argument must be in the actual behavior recorded by disinterested third parties. Or at least it would seem so to me.



This isn't the collusion I am talking about and I agree that there are contradictions in the synoptic gospels. I am referring to the collusion that went on in the canonization process. There are a host of gospels that were not included in the New Testament for a variety of reasons, chief among them, I suspect is they were not in accord with the early churches idea of what it thought appropriate or in-service to its aim.

As to Jesus being unlike other children, there are Jewish kiddos even today that have memorized complete tractates of the Talmud including all the various lines of debate. There are Buddhists who have memorized many hundreds of pages of scripture as well, and Christians who have committed the entire bible including much of the Hebrew Scripture to memory.

Don't forget, it is incumbent upon Jewish children and adults to study Torah daily, each day, every day, each year, every year, of their entire lives. It is not unusual to have particularly stellar performers. Also Jewish children are taught the answers are not as important as the quality of the questions. Framing questions, answering questions with a set of questions is the hallmark of both a Jewish and a Buddhist (I will add) education.

Good luck on your race! You are actually going to race against Ethiopians? You must be fleet of foot!

Be well.

Dear L: Your entire response is based on faith. That is fine, but when faiths collide there must be something besides our faith or belief that decides. In the case of the Church, there is a very, very long history of error. Papal decrees validating torture and forced conversion, Heresy trial's of our most famous and not so famous scientists and philosophers, burning witches and apostates at the stake...these are not principled, reasoned actions. Your Church has had to apologize more times in the last few decades than ever before.

You are welcome to attend zazen practice at any Zen Center of your choice. We will not ask you to change your beliefs, change your way of life, or anything else. All we would ask is that you face yourself directly.

I wish I had more time just now, but I am needed at Zen Center.

Be well.

The leaders of the church often get drunk with power and stop being members of the church. So they run around, and instead of having their goal be to know Jesus/God and introduce others to Jesus/God in a meaningful way, they instead want to convert everyone to their own way of life immediately. Of course, this gains many converts, who then act just like those leaders, oppressively and not at all the way Christ would. That makes for a bad church, and a bad deal for anyone not a member of that church. That's how inquisitions get started, and witches burned. If we can't convert you, might as well kill you. Stupidity!

That was in the past, though. Now, the church goes bad a completely different way - when all they want is people in the doors, nevermind whether they actually learn anything about Jesus or not. Just get them in, and once they're their, that's all that matters. In a good church, you want to get people in for a purpose other than just going to church. In some churches, church attendance seems to be the highest purpose, with every belief being encouraged to participate fully in the church.

A good church knows you can't convert people by threatening them, and that if you allow non-believers to run your ministries, you're not really a church anymore.

So if you want to attack the Catholic church, go ahead, but know that that isn't the whole of the Christians. And while there are still problems there, there are problems everywhere. There are just so many non-Catholic denominations, and Catholicism is so centralized, that it's easy to pick on them.

I'll second this Jytheir, for it's well said.

"I'll second this Jytheir, for it's well said."

Thanks, Lula.

If you go to a Zen Center, have you been Centered? Or is that just the center of centering?

ok Lula....what's up with this? You told me Satan was bound? I'm confused.....  

Is he or isn't he? He can't be active and bound at the same time? GAH!!

Jythier, I was not "picking on the Catholic Church, just replying to a Catholic's question and comments. A review of Church history is hardly and attack.

LW writes:



Hello Little Whip,

I am sorry you feel this way.

Be well.

With palms together,



Be well.

Good point KFC, I remember Lula saying that very clearly on your Revelations thread. Aha! Take that, Cathol! Your teachings will not live on!

Jythier posts:



KFC POSTS:



JYTHIER POSTS:



Yes, KFC, you're right. I can see where you'd be confused by my saying this. In my eagerness to support Jythier's comment, I wrote that.

Satan's bound during this time and he'll be loosed for a little while to deceive the nations. Read Apoc. 20:7.

Following the public vindication of Christ, Satan is kept from "deceiving the nations" for an long period of time figuratively spoken of as a thousand years. At present, he is restrained by God's power; "after that he must be loosed for a little while." This is the same chronology as St. Paul noted, although he told us specifically that the Church was living during the time of the "restraining " of Satan. 2Thess.2:6.

KFC and Jythier, did you remember that in the Revelation thread I mentioned Satan being bound in connection with conversions? I said, "Satan is bound to the point that this is the time where conversion is still ongoing. When that time is over, Satan is let loose, it's going to be real bad. That's going to be at the very end just before the final battle. We know who wins.   

What I meant by that is that Satan is bound now in such a way he can't stop the proclamation of the Gospel. St. Matt. 28

That's why the world isn't swallowed up in paganism and total darkness. Devil hasn't been able to stop the spread of Christianity.

And I also said: "The time of the Church blessing is known as the Millennium. St.John describes the Church age in Apoc. 20:1-6.

The age started with the birth of the Church at Christ's Passion. Satan was then definitively defeated but his public chaining occurred when the Temple of Jerusalem fell. From here on, Christ rules in Heaven over His world-wide Church kingdom until He comes again for the Final Judgment.

The reign of Christ and His Church will last a long time until God's plan is complete. Right now, the Gospel is being proclaimed to all nations and will until the full number of men are converted according to Almighty God's plan. If/when Christians let their zeal grow cold, then the restraining of evil will cease, Satan will be loosed for a little while and allowed to tempt and deceive nations (all people). One of the signs of the endtimes will be a great falling away from the faith; a great apostasy. "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1Tim. 4:1.


In the meantime, Satan may be bound but there are a host of demons that combine to attack us sowing evil to bring about men's damnation. The evil spirit confessed his name having been asked by Christ. "My name is legion"; that is to say a multitude of demons tormented their victim. St.Mark 5:9; St.Luke 8:30. And of another demon, "He taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there." St.Matt.12:45. What you were getting to in your comment Jythier and what I so eagerly agreed with is essentially that each individual has to choose between love of the truth offered by Christ and His Church and the deceitful one, the father of lies.

Remember too, besides Satan, sin comes by way of the temptations of the flesh and the world.

JYTHIER POSTS:

Jythier, you clearly don't understand Catholicism to say this. Since the Catholic Chruch is Apostolic in descent, it must be Apostolic in doctrine, for Christ, Eternal Truth, said of her: "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it," and "I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." If what you said is true, then Christ has not kept His promise.


Speaking of CC teaching, this might seem harsh, but then again it's often said that Catholic Church teaching is. This comes from the Catechism of the Council of Trent. "There are many who, becasue they do not feel the assaults of demons against them, imagine the whole matter is fictitious; nor is it surprising that such persons are not attacked by demons to whom they have voluntarily surrendered themselves. They possess neither peity, nor charity, nor any virtue worthy of a Christian; hence they are entirely in the power of the devil, and there is no need for any temptation to overcome them, since their souls have already become his willing abode.

But those who have dedicated themselves to God, leading a heavenly life on earth are the chief objects of the assaults of Satan. Against them, he harbors bitterest hatred, lying snares for them each moment. SS is full of examples of holy men who in spite of their firmness and resolution, were perverted by his violence or fraud..."

You sure say a lot.

The whole Cathol thing was yet another poor attempt at humor... as in, Catholicism is not based on the teachings of someone named Cathol... bah. Failed.

I knew that Jythier. ....ummmm *cough* not the poor attempt but the humor part....