here's a thought Lula....as you know I believe the "church" is all of us believers ....and we're still here just as you're saying the Holy CC is. So therefore his promise is still intact. We Christians are evidence of that. Christ was NOT talking organization but those believers who would come.

From our POV we would look at the CC like the wheat and tares growing together. Just because the CC is still here doesn't mean it's the "church" Christ was talking about. The Hindus are still here. So too are the Buddhists who were around longer than Christianity. Longevity doesn't necessarily mean they are "good."

At least KFC got it!

I don't know enough about the Catholic church to really talk about it, because I refuse to read those really long posts from Lula, and even when I do, I don't retain it very well.

KFC POSTS:


Yes, KFC, without doubt, Christ will be with all believers who believe in Him until the end of the world. However, having said that you can't make the assumptive leap that "all us believers" are the "church".

And you know that I believe that the "church" is all of us believers is a Protestant construct that came out of Martin Luther's and Calvin's teachings in the 1500's after they protested and then revolted from the Church and scrapped Sacred Apostolic Tradition in favor of their own.


When Christ said, "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it," the "it" He was referring to is not all believers. The "it" referred to the Church (which would over time become a visible society. Christ had just told Peter that "on this rock, I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." St.Matt.16:18-19.

Verse 19 makes no sense whatsoever if the "church" means all believers.


There are two sources of God's Revelation: written Sacred Scripture, and oral Sacred Tradition.

Jesus promised to continue speaking through His disciples "whoever listens to you, listens to me". After Christ's Resurrection, the Apostles preached God's word and appointed others to teach after them. The NT reports this mandate of St.Paul to Timothy: and what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well." Sacred Tradition is Christ's teaching the world first through His Apostles, then through their appointed successors, the Church leaders.

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church to the Truth: "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth." This guidance is absolutely necessary if the Chruch is to last until the end of the world and if we are to apply Christ's teachings to modern life with all its problems.

Christ's Church, the same one that is in St.Matt.16:18-19, Sacred Scripture tells us is the "pillar and bulwark of Truth". 1Tim.3:15. Again, this verse in Timothy, the Chruch is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, and doesn't make sense whatsoever if the "church" means all believers.

"on this rock, I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven."

I don't see how that doesn't make sense with the church being all believers. Please explain.

LULA POSTS:


Catholics hold that the Church Christ was referring to here, the one He established with St.Peter the rock is a visible, organic, spiritual body of Christ rather than an society of all believers.

It is St.Peter, our first Pope, to whom Christ made Key-bearer.
It's the BOdy of Christ to which the powers to bind and loose were delegated and upon which obligations were imposed, by Christ, that only a unified, visible kingdom of GOd could exercise and fulfill.

The Chruch is a visible theocracy, the "kingdom of God" as Christ called it StMatt.21:43. The Church completes the Israelite theocracy, the visible kingdom of God in the OLd Dispensation.

Christ established an organic, spiritual society to further His mission, the salvation of souls. That society was commissioned to preach, teach and judge matters of faith and morals and to administer the Christ-instituted sacraments and to offer an unbloody Sacrifice (the Holy Eucharist)to God. Christ called that society, "My Church", not my churches. It was one and not hundreds of doctrinally conflicting churches. That Church came into existence over 20 centuries ago, and not four centuries ago when the construct of the 'church' is all believers was developed.

The Chruch Christ called "My Church" must exist today because Christ said He would remain with it until the consummation of the world, and that the gates of Hell would never succeed in prevailing against it.

Understanding this, we come to a question of history. Let's trace back the origin of the principle existing churches that are called Christian taking the secular, non-Catholic encyclopedia as authority. The Church that dates back to the first Pentecost is the one, and the only one properly to designate itself as Christ-established.

These indisputable facts and not the CC, exclude the claim that Protestant churches to be Christ established, singly or collectively. Is the Lutheran Church, the Mother Church of Protestantism, the Church Christ established? Did Christ say to Martin Luther, or to Queen Elizabeth, John Knox, John Smyth, John Wesley, Joseph Smith, or Mrs. Eddy, "thou art the rock upon which I will build My Chruch?"

Did Christ commission them to preach, teach or confirm the power to forgive sin (the binding and loosing)? Did Christ promise to remain with any one of the 10 of thousands of Protestant churches until the end of the world?

If you are honest, you will answer no, and then I ask where is the Chruch today that was born on the first Pentecost day? Is it the Catholic Chruch. If you answer no, then you say to Our Lord, inferentially, You are not the Truth you claim to be for the gates of Hell which you said would not prevail, did prevail against the Church YOu established.

This is what an Episcopal minister of Fort Wayne, Indiana said:

"If we go back 500 years in history of our religion, we will find many perplexing problems, but not the one which confronts us now. There was then no Episcopal Chruch, no Methodist Chruch, no Presbyterian Church, etc. There was but one Christian Church in the world, which went by the name of Catholic.

Going back some 500 more years, we pass beyond the great schism of the Greek and Latin Chruches, and find one undivided, unbroken Christendom which had lasted from the days of CHrist for a thousand years. If we believe that Christianity is always the same in its truth and essence, that the presence of Christ abides in His Church, then we find exactly what St.Paul describes and we find that convincing appeal to unbelief for which Christ prayed."

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all."

I was under the impression that the divisions from the Catholic church came about because the Catholic church was doing such evil and blasphemous things that they had to REFORM the church back to what it was in the first place. Hence the reformation. The Catholic church from back then and the Catholic church that was divided from had only the name in common. The reformed church took up the mantle that Christ had given the Church. Hence, the Church is, as then, referring to ALL believers. Just because a church was created back then and given a name doesn't mean he was refering to that church.

Besides all that, he called it My Church, not my churches, because there is only ONE church. The body of all believers, started by Jesus Christ. Not St. Peter. That's St. Peter's church. Jesus was talking about Jesus' church. I will give you(my church) the keys... etc. You refering to His Church.

Which "reformed church" are you talking about and exactly how did they take up the mantle that Christ had given to His Church as per St.Matt. 16:18-19?

Apostolicity implies that the true Church is the Church which Christ commissioned His Apostles to establish under St.Peter. Apostolicity of origin is proof of Apostolicity of doctrine.
And how is this "reformed church" founded upon the Apostles?

How can you show that this "reformed church" is the one true Church established by Christ that He will be with until the end of time?

Each Protestant church is only as good as its pastor who determines whichever protestant doctrine he wants. When he goes, what's left?

JYTHIER POSTS:

There are no divisions within the Catholic Chruch becasue Christ promised to protect her from error and be with her until the end of the world.

The Catholic Chruch that you see around you today is exactly the same one that Jesus established that day He told Peter He would. The CC is the only Chruch that can rightly claim this origin.

The Eastern Chruches broke with the past and lost their Apostolic Succession. The Protestants broke with the Chruch at the time of Luther's revolt in 1520 and the English Protestants in 1559. You would do well to read the writings of the early Church Fathers who show conclusively that from St.Peter on to the 265th Pope, Pope Benedict there has been an unbroken chain of succession of bishops.

Christ's mission to teach, preach and confirmation to bind and loose (Apostolic Tradition) was given first to His Apostles, then to their successors.

The evil and blashphemous things that you say the Church was doing that led up to Luther's revolt were concerned with temporal and not spiritual matters. The Catholic reaction to the Protestant Revolt was indeed a thoroughgoing reform. Discipline was restored in the older religious orders, new congregations and holy orders were developed such as the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits), and most of all the Council of Trent re-stated Catholic doctrine and suppressed abuses.

the word of God on which the next preacher preaches

True, but with Sola Scriptura and each preacher interpretating the Word of God according to his own judgment, which could be quite different from the previous preacher lies the problem and confusion. In Protestantism, snce there are many, many different churches, there is no one faith, one baptism, no unity that Christ prayed for.

Whereas, the Body of Christ in the Catholic Church, His Church, no matter if it is located in the US, Europe, Africa, or Asia has "unity" as in Ephesians 4:5, in the One Body, one Spirit, one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, in order that salvation may come to us through the mercy of the one true God.

Does not each Pope interpret the Word of God according to his own judgement, which could be quite different from the previous Pope?