That's so exciting that you're going to WoF, KFC! Have lots of fun! My wife probably would like to go but we can't really afford it at the moment. Maybe next year.

Okay.

Now, think about religious indifferentism. We know religions are belief systems and therefore based on what you say here, I wonder....Do you think that all religions are true?

SO DAIHO POSTS:

SO DAIHO POSTS: #54

So Daiho,

I've noticed over the course of these JU discussions, whenever you have a beef with Christianity, you bring up Jesus driving the sellers out of the Temple area. In every case, including these, you have the wrong interpretation of what Jesus was doing.

First, you've told us that you are a Buddhist priest and I imagine that you attend a Buddhist temple in which you conduct Buddhist practices. Would you react with righteous anger if others completely took over your Temple and turned it into a noisy area of buying and selling oxen, goats and sheep? Furthermore, those same people were acting in dishonest dealings? Would these kinds of activity be a grave abuse of the Buddhist temple for I know they were of the Jewish temple at Passover in our Lord Jesus' day.

Secondly, there is the fact of the Temple itself....the house of God. The Temple of Jerusalem which had replaced the previous sanctuary which the Isrealites carried around in the wilderness was the place selected by God during the Old Covenant to express His presence to the people in a special way.

For the Passover of the Jews, the most important religious feast for the people of the OLd Testament, Jesus goes to the temple as the only begotten Son of God and what kind of behavior does He see? Full of holy zeal, He reproved and punished the buyers and sellers who were behaving irreverently in the outer court of the Temple. He begins by reforming grave abuses and purifying it from sin.

St.John 2:16-17, Jesus said, ..."take these things away, you shall not make My Father's house a house of trade." His disciples rembered that it was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me." This is a quotation from which Jesus fulfilled the words of Psalm 69:10. The Psalm relates to the Messiah and His sufferings. Jesus had just made a significant assertion, by calling His Father and acting so energetically He proclaimed He is the Messiah, the Son of God. When the disciples saw what holy zeal Jesus purified the Temple.

Christ's words and actions as He expels the traders from the temple clearly show that He is the Messiah foretold by the prophets. That's why some of the Jews approach Him and ask Him to give a sign of His power. He showed His divinity or to speak more exactly, His omniscience, by distinctly foretelling that the Jews would kill Him (destroying the temple of His Body) and that He would raise His dead Body to life again on the 3rd day.

SO DAIHO POSTS:

Doctrinal indifferentism maintains all philosophical opinions, all religious doctrines, and ethical doctrines regarding life are equally true and equally valuable.

Doctrinal indifferentism is in conflict with truth as everything cannot be equally true and have equal value.

Buddhism is far inferior to CHristianity as a religion for not recognizing man's dependence upon an Infinite God. It makes salvation rest solely on man's personal effort. It's at best a selfish utilitarianism. It's doctrine of Karma with its imaginary reincarnations is an unnatural superstitition, adverse to sound morality and true religion. It's utter pessimissiom which declares every form of conscious existence an evil is contrary to the instincts of human nature and its promise of the unconscious repose of Nirvana is devoid of the hope and joy of the eternal reward of the Beatific Vision.

JYTHIER POSTS:

Hi Jytheir,

This is Catholic commentary on St. Matt. 20: 1-16.

In the parable the master of the house is God; the market place is the world; the vineyard is God's kingdom on earth, the Church. The steward is our Lord Jesus Christ; the laborours in the vineyard are the faithful who are called by God to believe in the one true faith and live in accordance with it. The day of the work is the lifetime of men on earth and the denarius signify the eternal reward of Heaven.

Almighty God calls us at different times to work in His vineyard. Some He calls early in the morning, as little children; others boys and girls, He calls at the sixth hour. Others He calls when they are full grown men and woman and many He calls at the eleventh hour in the evening of life or old age.

The paying of the wages takes place at the close of the day, at the end of our lives, when after death, those whom God called late in life will receive an everlasting reward as well as those called earlier, if only they, like the laborers in the vineyard, obeyed God's voice when He called them and worked with perseverence living according to their faith, even to the end of the day.

The parable also shows us God's Goodness and mercy and ought to be great comfort to the converted sinner and teach them never to lose hope and give way to despair.

Those called at the eleventh hour were sinners for till they were called, they lived without God and neither had faith nor practiced good works (love and charity toward God and neighbor). The parable teaches us that even the sinner will be saved if at the end of his life, he opens his heart to God's grace and is converted. Salvation does not depend on when we are called for that depends entirely upon God, but it does depend on how we obey that call and whether we persevere to the end.

Who are chosen? All men are called, becasue our Lord Jesus died for all, and "God will have all men to be saved" and gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. The chosen are those who really attain Heaven. The name of "Chosen" is given to them becasue God, has chosen them for His kingdom of heaven out of the multitude of those whom He calls. The number of the chosen is our Lord says, small in comparison with the multitude of those called; for many, very many of those called are lost by their own fault. This is a solemn and terrible truth. "Wherefore, brethren, labor the more that by good works, you may make sure your calling and election." 2St.Peter 1:20.


"So shall the last be first, and the first will be last; for many are called, but few are chosen."

"So shall the last be first" These words are addressed in the first place to the Jews who ought to have been the very first to enter into Christ's new kingdom becasue the promises were made to them and they (the many) were all called.

Next, in the wider sense, they are addressed to all men and have a double meaning. Many of those who according to time, are the first to be called, will be the last to receive their reward having to suffer a long time in Purgatory in expiation of their laxity and lukewarmness on earth. Those called later may on account of their zeal be received sooner into the kingdom of Heaven. Many on earth who were esteemed by others to be first, and were first by reason of their position, will enjoy the lowest degree of heavenly
happiness. Whereas many who were despised and thought very little of on earth will receive in heaven the highest degree of reward.

"the last to be first" are the first to receive their reward. But many receive no reward at all for many are called (to believe), but few (in comparison with the number called) are chosen to be saved.


"Many are called" Jesus said this to warn agaisnt falling into a state of false security on account of His promises and looking on their reception into Heaven asa certainity. Many who, according to time, were the first to be called to follow Christ, might be in the very lowest rank of those judged by Him for the time of our call signifies nothing. It is only the final perseverance which will avail us. Judas was among the first to be called and yet, he
lost his soul.

Thanks for the commentary, Lula.

I do not have a "beef" with Christianity. I disagree strongly with its theology and how it is sometimes practiced. On my blog, I rarely if ever mention it, as I see it as useless and even sometimes dangerous. I did however, make as full and complete study of it as is possible in a southern college and taught by professors from Southern Baptist theological schools. I also took the time to go to a Catholic priest and study cathechism with him. I have not met a single Christian who has done the same. Yet, I have met quite a few who seem to think they know enough about my original faith,Judaism, or my adopted faith-tradition, Zen Buddhism, to speak of it with any real knowledge or experience.

This said, I do at times have (as KFC points out, "issues" with some Christians). I am working on this as evidenced by my continued willingness to engage in dialogue here.

I do not think I have an incorrect interpretation of Jesus at the temple. The reason I often bring this scene up is that there aere so few real scenes of Jesus actual behavior in the New Testament. In this particular case he shows himself to be a rebel. I believe Paul and the later Church spun these tales of the Pharisees turning them into the "vipers" Jesus alledgely calls them for the sake of putting down the priests of the Temple and God's commandements to His people. In fact, this was necessary to enable the fledging religion to gain its ground apart from its mother faith.

Money was, in fact, considered unclean, as were many things deemed so by God. Jesus took issue with the orthodoxy of the Temple, seemed to think the Temple needed to be more spiritual, and was attempting (I think) to demonstrate that rote was not a good thing. In this I agree, yet I disagree with his method. Showing great disrespect to a Temple and its priest does nothing (in my view) but generate disrespect.



Lulipilgrim, with due respect, I am not only a Zen Buddhist priest, I am a roshi and the abbot of a Buddhist temple. I have, in fact, had Christians attend my Temple and behave quite rudely. I listened with respect and attempted to respond to their provocations with respect and gentleness. But this is not your point. The Temple was not Jesus' Temple, it was Israel's Temple, sanctioned and made holy by God. The activity you are taking issue with is activity ordained by the God you say you believe in as recorded in His Torah. You have no evidence the money-changers dealt dis-honestly. In fact, the exact opposite is more likely the case. The Talmud which you referred me to in another post was a recording of the ethical and moral standards and interpretations of the Jewish people as they attempted to apply the commandments of the Torah to their daily lives. It is quite exactling. Talmudic discourse is all about honesty, justice, fairness, as applied to the Law. Dis-honest behavioer would not have been tolerated by the Priests nor by the people.




Luli: there is no "Old" covenent. Only a covenent. I really don't think God changed His mind and made a new agreement with His people or any other people for that matter. Jesus goes to the Temple and discovers people doing what they were instructed by God to do and doing it with zeal. Your problem with following God's orders is? You think they should be allowed to bring unclean items into the Temple? The "grave abuses" are the instructions of God. But then, Christianity itself seems to have little problem overturning God's law and other transgressions against the Torah.

If Jesus were to have entered the Temple, claim to be the incarnation of God, he would be considered a heretic and followers of his blasphemous idolators. Jews have fogiven this heresay and have decided that Christianity is not idolatry. I am not so certain myself. I believe Christianity as a theology is dualistic and is therefore a seed of demons. What saves Judasim from this same seed is its core teaching, the sh'ma, "Hear O'Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." Judaism core is non-dualistic even though liturgically it uses dualistic language.




This psalm does NOT relate to the messiah and certainly not some carpenter named Jesus. This is Christian spin on the Hebrew Scripture. But let me see, what you are saying is that people acting with religious zeal are bad, whereas Jesus doing the same is good? Jesus father was all of the people Israel's father. He was not apart from them, nor special in any way. Moreover, he was subject to the same Torah. still, you get two Jews in a room and you got three opinions: oy, sometimes nothing changes.



Actually, they show a man wanting to demonstrate he thinks he is somehow above the law. The rest is Ex Post Facto rhetoric aimed to establish a claim I believe to be utterly and completely false. It was hardly omniscience. Jesus knew full well the penalty for such heresay. As far as the so-called risen Jesus goes: a fairy tale, pure and simple, but one that has mythic appeal. It also has tremendous transformative power provided it is not taken literally.

Be well.

All they had to do Sodaiho is produce a body. That's it. If they had done that. We wouldn't be having this discussion.

It all starts there. As far as I know, they are still looking. They will not find it....for HE has risen indeed.

I would also agree with Lula here Sodaiho. This psalm of David tells of his unjust persecution but the sinless Jesus experienced it in the most supreme way. This psalm has other messianic implications as well and is the most quoted psalm in the NT.

Religious zeal is good as long as it glorifies God and NOT man. Christ was jealous for the holiness of God's house. The offense of the money changers was in their defiling it. They were NOT glorifying God but were glorifying themselves by filling their pockets.

Hello KFC,

The psalm was written long before Jesus was a twinkle in Mary's eye. Moreover, Jesus, to be human, could not be sinless according to Christian doctrine as I understand it. Jews have, in the main, and for a couple of centuries now, re-interpreted the messianic elements of their thinking to point to a messianic 'age' rather than a 'person'. This was wise as it avoids the idolatrous implications of a person thinking he is God made manifest. All of the NT spin is the same as tea leaf interpretation. Its an after the fact application of old stories of hope, as in the psalm in question. To me this is a disasterous idea. It suggests hope is outside of us, as if God were in the clouds somewhere looking out over the world of man. Such a view is, in my opinion, a primitive monotheistic view, childish in the extreme.

A study of the psalms is a study of a deep human struggle of a people in relationship to their God. The Christian use and occasional abuse of these scriptures is an exercise in the greco-romanification of this struggle. Over the centuries, rather than being an earthy, moist process of knowing God intimately, it becomes through Christianity a intellectual conflict between body and logos. Christian theology detests the body, anything earthy, and prefers to live in the heady notions of a sky god. So far, OK, if that's what floats your boat. But in truth, human beings live on the earth, their struggles are not clean, nor are they clear cut. Sometimes a little dirt is a good thing. Sin and suffering is not our enemy, but our teacher. I do not want my sins washed away. I want to embrace them, l;earn from them, invite them into the transformative processes of my own growth as a human being.

Be well.

I see no difference. Diligence and vigor at the practice of one's faith are good things, dharma gates actually. Our practice in Zen is to practice for the sake of dropping away the self, opening to the larger Self, the Infinite, perhaps these are the same.

Just because your book says changing money was defiling doesn't make it so. The money changers were performing a service for the Temple of God. Moreover, this is symptomatic of Christian neurosis over such things. Are most fundamentalist Christians staunch capitalists and apparent Republicans? It would seem that money is a good thing to a capitalist and the lining of one's pockets is a sign of God's grace (at least according to the work of Max Weber).

Be well.

SODAIHO POSTS:

During the Passover becasue of the extra crowd the outer courtyard of the Temple was filled with traders and money changers which meant noise, extra sheep, and oxen, etc and most likely plenty of manure taboot. They were disturbing the worshippers in the other courts. Since when was the Temple area meant for this and instructed by God So Daiho? The prophets had already fulminated against these abuses which grew with the tacit approval of the Temple authorities who made money by permitting trading. The Temple was never meant as an animal's stall and trading place and that is what Jesus saw that it had become. It was time to clean up their act and Jesus did just that by driving the dealers, the money changers and the animals out of the Temple. St.Jerome wrote that "Heavenly fire gleamed from His eyes, and Divine Majesty shone on His countenance".

There is nothing derogatory as to what Jesus said or did. He reformed the abuses going on. He reminded them on no uncertain terms that due decorum must be observed in the house of His Father.

In the Temple and in the presence of many leading Israelities Jesus distinctly declared Himself to be the SOn of God calling the Temple the House of His Father. He proved His Divinity by the power and majesty of His indignation when He drove them out. This served to increase the faith of the disciples who perceived in His action the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Messiah would be full of zeal for the house of God for they remembered the Psalm.

Our Lord's direct testimony was a grace for the Isrealites who happened to be in the Temple. The grace of faith was offered to them, but they resisted it; they would not believe and demanded a fresh miracle. God gives His grace to all men, but man has the free will to resist it.

Now where on earth did you get this idea? That as far as I'm aware of is a gnostic teaching not a Christian one. There are many scriptures referring to our body as the temple of God and that we are to take good care of what God has given us. Paul talked about disciplining ourselves and not to be indulgent in fleshly things as to do harm our bodies.

The gnostic teaching was it didn't matter what you did to your body...you could use and abuse it because it was the mind that was most important, not the body.

As far as heady notions...as Christians we are to not be so heavenly minded we're no earthly good. Neither are we to be so earthly minded we're no heavenly good. It's a balance between our relationship with God and man.



Oh, well in the Christian faith, there is a big difference.



yes, you're right. But Jesus wasn't mere human. He was God in the flesh. He was 100% human and 100% God. He had no earthly father.



There's nothing wrong with money as in having lots of money even. It's not what we receive so much as what we do with it. Are we good stewards of what God has given us? Are we using it for his glory or our own? As Christians we recognize everything comes from God.

He rains on the just and the unjust...the only difference is as a Christian, we get to stand under his umbrella.   

Hey there KFC! How are ya! I wasn't pointing at all to the Gnostic teachings.

Let's see, I got this understanding from much of the Church's history and quips such as you know, cleanliness is next to godliness, we should be ashamed of our nakedness, serpents crawl on the ground, there is a whole history of literature that points to such things spanning the ages from at least the Old English Beowulf to more modern classics. The Puritans come to mind, as well as other writings of early American settlers. If you made a study of mythology you would have gotten this out of the box understanding.




I believe you here. Yet, I experience heaven and earth as one, just as I do God and man.



Yes, this is clearly where your faith and my experience differ. I think Joseph was the man.



Personally, I am open to receiving the rain rather than shielding myself from it.

Be well. (I've got to do speedwork in the morning.)

Dear L, Your rendition of Passover is a bit Christianized, read sanitized (sort of reminds me of those delightful pictures of Jesus as a fair haired boy in bibles). The seder is most often at home. I don't think they held them at the Temple, but I may be wrong on this. Jesus angry outburst was during the preparation for the Passover, if I am not mistaken. Goats and other livestock were all over the place (this was, afterall a tribal and nomadic people).

You say he declared he was God. Great. I rather think he thought of himself as the messiah. The messiah and God are two very dfifferent things. Its only in Christianity that the two became confused with one another. OK, so he declares he's God...so what? He needed biblical support for his claim, like all male children he studied Torah daily, he knew the texts, (and this was an era of great suffering and there was a sincere desire for salvation from this suffering), and so putting two and two together, he thinks he's the messiah. Lots of people since have declared themselves thus. He had a band of followers who colluded to write text to support this claim, then later followers agreed to canonize the story. And today people use this piece of self-supporting fiction to make grand claims. Great. More power to them, but don't be upset if a person outside the box sees it for what it is, a very pleasant (sometimes not so pleasant) story.

Be well.