Yes, I persist in calling Secular and Atheistic Humanism a religion for good reason.....becasue that's exactly what they are ever since 1965.

I would agree with you if we limit ourselves to Webster's primary definition of religion which is " the belief and worship of God ", then Secular Humanism is not a religion. But when you get to Webster's 4th definition... that religion is " anything done or followed with reverence or devotion", then based on this expansion of the definition, Secular Humanism fits the definition of religion. This is exactly what the court case, United States vs Seeger, did in 1965....it essentially broadened the definition of the word "religion". Buddhism fits with this 4th definition. Buddhism is one of the world's leading religions, yet Buddhists don't believe in or worship a Supreme Being called God.

Call my replies what you will....All I did was point out the truth.

 

Hmmm...this is your implicit humour and irony?  (No wonder I missed it!!!)

So you wouldn't consider being negligent in the more pressing, and real, matters of the world, but have no problem neglecting the affairs of eternity of which all depends?  How wise is that? 

 

Does truth matter?

Many fail to believe in eternal life (either Heaven or Hell)  not because of intellectual difficulties but because the truth goes counter to their passions and puts a definite limit to their independence.

It's the fool indeed who prepares not for his eternity with God.

 

Yes, "You do not have to believe in a Creator to have one" is a valid argument, but evidently, it went right over your head.

You may not believe in Creator God but your unbelief has no bearing on His existence.

 

 Yes, tragically, people kill each other, but how much killing is really religiously motivated due to say, practicing Christianity?

What about "religion-free" atheistic slaughter from the 1900 to 2000? 100 million lives killed in Stalin's Soviet Gulag State, Mao Zedong's Communist China, Hitler's Nazism, and Pol Pot Khmer Rouge. It's indisputable that all the religions in the world put together in all of history didn't kill as many people as in the name of atheism in the past few decades.

 

This is an email that was circulated in 2006...

This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the footballgame at Roane County High School, Kingston, Tennessee, by school

Principal,Jody McLoud.

 

"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country." Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it "an alternate lifestyle," and if someone is offended, that's OK.  I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex." If someone is offended, that's OK.  I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a "viable means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem...

 

I can designate a school day as "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess "Mother Earth" and call it "ecology."  I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depict people with strong, traditional Christian convictions as "simple minded" and "ignorant" and call it "enlightenment."

 

However, if anyone uses this facility to honor God and to ask Him to bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated.

 

This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical.

 

Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except God

and His Commandments.

 

Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical... I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.  For this reason, I shall "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying  at this time. "However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank God and ask Him, in the name of Jesus, to bless this event, please feel free to do so.  As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."

 

One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another and began to pray. They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They prayed at the concession stand and they prayed in the Announcer's Box! The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America - the Seat of "Justice" in the "one nation, under God."

 

Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee, remembered what so many have forgotten. We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

 

Praise God that His remnant remains! Jesus said, "If you are ashamed of Me before men, then I will be ashamed of you before My Father."

OK, one last post from me, I take the bait

First of all please feel free to label me as a humanist though if I was forced to label myself as anything it would be a socialist with anarchist tendencies. However, I am not trying to argue that humanism is right but that religion is a fabrication. Human relationships and the laws and rules of society can be constructed without the need for a supernatural being, and, even worse still, those who preach that they know the mind of God.

You mention Hitler, Stalin and other mass murderers and make some bold and I humbly suggest incorrect claims about whether more people have been killed by religious zealots or 'humanists' but again that is not any point I am arguing - it is you who feels the need to 'win' an argument in respect of 'proving' how religion is better than non-religion. I know good and bad people of both 'persuasions'.

I will state again, I do not believe in God or religion. You make a throwaway comment that I must be a fool not to prepare for eternity with God. I ask you, how do you know (i) that God exists? (ii) that you know what he is thinking? (iii) that he is in fact a 'he' at all? (iv) if my unbelief has no bearing on his existence why will he not leave me alone?

When you suggest that I have no concern for eternity you state assertion as fact yet again. and ultimately Lula that is why it is tedious to debate with you. Whatever argument is put before you, you respond with unsupported nonsense and supposition.

And my final point - YOU WRITE:

"Does truth matter?

Many fail to believe in eternal life (either Heaven or Hell)  not because of intellectual difficulties but because the truth goes counter to their passions and puts a definite limit to their independence."

This is absolute nonsense, lacking in argument, evidence or reason. It has no logic and makes no sense. Split the sentence into two (just after 'difficulties') and it makes you appear quite foolish really. I can only imagine you were drinking a large glass of red wine when you typed those words and that what you intended to state didn't come out right. Are you seriously suggesting that I ignore 'TRUTH' because I wish to lead a libertine existence and shag myself silly to the grave, drinking and womanising but that belief in religion would inhibit such behaviour and so I ignore the truth? There is no intellectual difficulty involved in disbelieving in the supernatural and secondly, many 'moral' people who live a 'moral' life have no need for a deity. Personally though I quite like wine, women and song but then my moniker suggest as much.

As Keats wrote, "Beauty is truth and truth beauty, that is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know."

Adios, sayonara, auvoir, goodbye, auf widersehen, ta ta Lulapilgrim, I can't pretend it's been a blast but good luck and God bless all the same.

Well, since Christ, there is but one particular form of religion of God's making and that's Christianity...All of the other religions are indeed fabrications---man-made fabrications.

Spoken like a secular/atheistic Humanist. Sure they can if the goal is for society to descend into total chaos.

No need for Almighty God equals no need for God's authority and standards of what is right and wrong.

I'll take the time to re-iterate...but this time speak in general. Many people spend their lives in vain pursuit of riches, honors, power, pleasures, and knowledge of this or that earthly topic. But these never satisfy the heart and besides these must be left behind when the hour of death comes. Our salvation is much more important than any of these things for they will be profitless if we do not save our soul. "What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world, but suffer the loss of his own soul?" Just something to think about.  

We know by our reason that God exists, because of:

The existence of the world which could not have come into existence by itself. Everything in the world had a beginning--mankind, plants, animals, planets, stars --all had a beginning. They could not have come into existence by themselves. They must have been made by Someone who had no beginning. Man, planets, etc. could no more have made themselves than a watch can make itself.

The order and harmony of the universe leads us to infer the existence of a Supreme Architect and Preserver of all surpassing skill. The heavenly bodies go along their appointed courses age after age. The Seasons succeed one another year after year. There is splendor, beauty, arrangement and order everywhere. The whole universe is governed and preserved by IMMUTABLE LAW. To say that this universal order is the result of evolutionary chance is as foolish as to say that automobiles go sensibly around by themselves.

The testimony of our conscience distinguishes right from wrong. Thus within ourselves there is a recognition of a Supreme Lawgiver to whom we are responsible, who will reward the good and punish the evil that we do. Those who persist in denying the existence of God in spite of external and internal testimony are atheists. Of them Our Lord said, "Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, neither do they understand...." St.Matt. 13:13-15.

In creating us God gave us the power and right to choose which path we will follow in life..either the path of obedience or the path of disobedience to His commandments. Each must choose for himself his own destiny.

That's where God's religion comes in...

Man's high destiny is to go to God because man comes from God and belongs entirely to God. Our reason tells us that Someone made us. That Someone is God. Nothing can proceed from nothing. If there had ever been a moment when nothing existed, nothing would ever have existed. Therefore, because we exist, we know Someone who made us also exists. That Someone is God.

God has told mankind very clearly why He created man, what is the destiny of man, and what man must do in order to attain that destiny. He gave us His laws and sent the Prophets to teach men His will; after that, He sent His own Divine Son Jesus Christ, and Christ sent His Church to teach all men until the end of the world.

The end of man, as is all Creation, is the glory of God. Man was created chiefly for life beyond the grave. This present life is merely a preparation for the eternal life. This is a great mystery but there God wants to share with us His own unmeasured bliss.

So we belong to God and since we are His creatures, we have certain duties towards God which we must fulfill. His Religion (which is the virtue by which we give to God the honor, gratitude, obedience and worship due to Him alone as our Master, Creator and Lord and in the way prescribed by Him) teaches us these duties.

So, our chief business in life, the business which God commands us to attend to,  is to go to God. And this depends on our practice of the Christian Religion.

Our reason tells us that God must have made us for some purpose...to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be with happy with Him in the next.

It is by the Christian Religion that we fulfill the purpose for which we were created. By believing what God has revealed, we know God. By knowing God, we cannot help but love Him, and by practicing what we learn and by obeying God's commands, we serve Him. "He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me."    

 

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but it sure looks like you were trying to make your point that bloodthirsty,religious zealots kill a lot of people. My response is correct btw.

Sorry, it was not me, but you who suggests you have no concern for eternity.....when you wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

quote who="DESADE666" reply="120" id="3323280"] such as 'eternal life' which I do not believe in and there is no evidence [/quote]

Yes, there is evidence of eternal life. It's called justice. The very sense of justice among men resulting in laws/ courts supposes a Just God. We didn't give ourselves our sense of justice. It comes from Whoever made us and no one can give what he does not possess himself. We certainly know that justice cannot always be done by men, laws and courts in this world. Here the good often suffer and the wicked prosper. And even though human justice doesn't always succeed in balancing the scales, it will be balanced by a Just God, who most certainly exists.

The four last things for every one of us are death, judgment, Heaven or Hell. Justice comes as eternal life in Heaven or Hell.   This is the levelling-up after this life and by God.

God points out in man the existence of an eternity that he may enjoy by obeying the moral law written on his heart. Fool, indeed, is he who does not prepare for his eternal life.

To your reply #120,

I asked a question and made a general statement---"Many fail to believe...". Please understand that nothing there was personal but rather simply an explanation and consideration of why many fail to believe in eternal life in Heaven or Hell.

Many people do not want truth for truth implies obligations and great responsibilities and embracing truth most often entails moral correction or altered behavior.

Some people, not all, who claim to be atheists understand perfectly an argument and clearly see that the conclusion (i.e. God and eternal life exist) is necessarily true, and yet reject that conclusion for reasons that have nothing to do with the argument itself, but because accepting the truth will mean a direct change to the way they are living. ...and they don't want to do that. 

The truth is in possession. Men do not have to persuade themselves there is a God. They have to try to persuade themselves there is no God. And no one yet who has attained to such a temporary persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. Men do not grow into the idea of a God; they endeavor to grow out of it. 

Morals is the notion of right from wrong which characterizes it as good or bad.  Where/who do the 'moral' people you are talking about get morals? According to the dictum attributed to Fyodor Dostoyevsky, "If there is no God, everything is permitted."

It is Christian religious belief and its moral benefits and not secular or atheistic Humanism that encourages men of good will to get up when we fail, ask forgiveness, overcome vices, and keep striving to do good and be good.

Only One in history said, "I am the Truth" and Jesus said, "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." It means that the inaccessible God has become Man, our Friend, our Life. 

 

 

 

 

 

Lula, you are always telling other people what you think they are complete with definitions and handicaps, what you think they believe [(or should) or have to], what they must disbelieve and what they have to do to become bat shit crazy too. You are allowed to think and believe what you want, act out your life in any legal manner suitable to you, but you sure should reconsider the reality aspects again. The pope knows how old the Earth is and I pointed it out to you elsewhere, so why don’t you believe that too (he’s your pope?)? The pope knows Adam and Eve never walked this planet, that there was no original sin and that Noah’s ark didn’t take place in the real world or any other, why don’t you too(he’s your pope?)?  AIG and seemingly your error free catechism are still preaching all of these things as if well as if they were gospel and still beyond question.  

You must find a way to allow science back into your life in some meaningful way or you are doomed to a life of failure (outside your church) and frustration and risk never being taken seriously except by another of like mind. You don’t converse with people you berate them, you don’t listen to people especially when they explain themselves and you, you just don’t seem to care about anything or anybody else. You tell people they are always wrong about everything they know, love, believe in or ever can think of because you have a bible and you have faith in it.

If you or anyone else could prove the bible accurate in any manor, it would have been done by now. From the inception of your church, you folk have promoted an ignorant clientele for as long as possible, except the clergy. They did such a good job of poisoning the well that a couple millennia later, the unreasonably faithful are still trying for uneducated patronage. You have no idea that this dogged defense of the indefensible is what drives most people away from the religions that practice such folly. Just remember that what you are preaching: a young earth and universe, a denial of science, a denial of medical competence, a supposed denial of everything in an encyclopedia, a denial of biological evolution (pope knows better), your insistence of a real Adam and Eve, that your god kept the paper trail (and people) right on target when there is no paper trail or that you could possibly tell the difference between good magic and bad magic based on your human perceptions: is ludicrous.

Lula, you approach every statement presented as a contestation of your beliefs and you take everything as a personal attack on you and you refuse to acknowledge the versatility of anything from elsewhere, just in-house stuff, how could you ever even expect to understand something else? What good is a belief if one has to deny their senses, mind and personal capabilities just to maintain that belief? How can that be or promote as any kind of truth? If you don’t know how to search for the truth (why should one stop looking?) then you will not even look for it as is evident. You do not appear to comprehend science in its simplest terms yet you quote mine other creationists (because they are on the approved list) and pretend you understand them, but not the vast majority of scientists doing the exact same research. If you could reasonably understand their work as you profess, then there is nothing preventing you from understanding the work of the real scientists you reject out of hand.

You are the worst conversationalists I have ever had the misfortune of encountering. As fallible as you consider humankind to be in all ways; well you sure don’t include yourself there do you. You seem to think that YOUR every word, YOUR every thought and YOUR every action to be perfect and impeachable, but you are wrong. You pretend you have vanquished all other arguments and the only one left in the current one. The truth is you haven’t won any of them because you offer no proof. You talk about absolutes as if you could possibly know, you talk about homosexuals as if they were subhuman, you condemn everyone who doesn’t slather at your every word and you do nothing but make excuses for the nastiness you would subjugate everyone to with your kindness.  You are as phony as a three dollar bill and every argument I have seen you make does nothing but reinforce the phoniness because they ALL have been repeatedly debunked. Please don’t feel obligated to respond here because I was just bored and I have heard all your nonsense repeatedly over the years, so much that I could provide your rebuttal for you.

*sigh*

Separation of church and state is not separation of religion and state.  It's that simple, accept.

 

Now Obama gave a big speech about how freedom of religion actually means the Soviet doctrine of freedom of worship.  So it's understandable how recent events can confuse.  Jews there were basically forced to eat food that isn't kosher for example because that does not fall under freedom of worship, only freedom of religion.  Of course it probably didn't help that the nation couldn't feed their own people anyway.

 

Edit:  Glenn Beck does a half decent job of outlining it here on youtube:

 

Rogue, I thought this post is about the freedom of religion but if you want to discuss the separation of church and state, I can oblige you. Do you really pay attention to BO, how strange that is for a right-winged Christian apologist? Recent events (like what?) have nothing whatsoever to do with my rejection of the concept or need of a god. It has to do with the ridiculously old and barbaric ramblings (now in book form) of desperate people trying to survive the only way they could think of based on their actual lack of knowledge of the universe or anything in it at the time. People of other cultures learned to read and write, they knew the shape and relative size of the earth, understood fairly in depth mathematical concepts and applications and knew plenty of things concerning the natural world simply because they weren’t handicapped by unfounded monotheistic beliefs or a god who values ignorance and blind obedience above all things. And I am still waiting for your definition of atheism, the one atheists are somehow required to follow and ‘religiously’ adhere to?

*sigh* 

PS - Oh a video too, what next. Glenn Beck is just another right winged Christian apologist too, so I see your connection to him and his ramblings.

Yes, this is an important point. There is a difference between freedom of religion and freedom of worship and Obama knows it. that's why he and Hillary changed their lingo no longer saying "freedom of religion" but rather, "freedom of worship".

They're trying to limit what the First Amendment means. "Freedom of worship" means confining the scope and range of religious practice to within the four walls of a church and not beyond.  But this is far different from freedom of religion which means religious speak and expression in the public square. 

Our rights to life, liberty, the right to private property, our right to freedom of conscience and the practice of the one true religion founded by Jesus Christ are given to each human person directly from our Creator. No human authority has the authority from God to take these rights away. The United State government may not even pretend to have such authority to deny us these fundamental rights, as all authority comes from God.

So Christians are foolish if they don't pay attention to Obama and his administration's radical agenda and what they are doing to undermine our First Amendment freedoms. Obama's war on religion, especially on its public role, is unprecedented.

 

 

Don’t want this to be reclassified under politics Lula, but it isn’t my post? Well let’s see; we just had an election and your Mormon buddy, the one you forced yourself to tolerate, lost soundly and there is a vast Christian majority in America and surely they vote and well BO still won convincingly. That alone ought to tell you something like maybe your objections are based on Catholicism (specifically a literal interpretation and a young earth) and you are trying to use liberal Christians who know better as camouflage. I think BO is an experienced liar and I expect little truth there, you seem to think otherwise? Sadly though, it is people like you and your churches that are at war with the world around you and have been for a thousand years. Well the world has grown up even if many people haven’t and the gods will just have to go find their own universes, possibly ones in which they aren’t totally impotent, perhaps.

Lula

1. I do not believe in eternity. You misunderstand my point - I will try to be clearer. When I stated that you use assertion as fact I was referring to your use of the word ETERNITY as if describing a real, undeniable, evidenced thing and that we will all have to spend eternity with the bearded one or the horned one. I have no concern for eternity because I do not think it exists - I believe that we live on this earth and then it is all over for us when we die. That is why I have concern for this life and how we live on this earth (though of course the lifespan of this planet itself is indeed finite.)

2. And you do realise, do you not, that each and every soldier in the German army had a 'God on Our Side' motto on their belts? That Hitler was a Catholic? That he explicitly stated in 'Mein Kampf' that he felt a duty to the Lord to kill the Jews? That Hitler's first treaty was with Rome? That the Catholic churches in Germany celebrated Hitler's birthday each year. That the Roman Catholic church did not speak out against the holocaust? That the hatred of Jews has its origin in the shameful portrayal in the Christian Bible? National Socialism itself was steeped in old Nordic traditions and Norse Gods. But even if as you appear to suggest Hitler orchestrated genocide because he was a atheist (and he was never excommunicated by the Catholic Church so officially he was a Catholic if a non-practising one to the end) none of this excuses what was done in the name of God throughout the course of human history.

3. You state that all religions other than Christianity (your Catholic version) are man made! That's an old fashioned Catholic belief that most of the Catholic church doesn't even argue any more. And you quote random biblical passages as proof. I'm sorry to have to tell you this but all religion is man made and  reflects the prevailing knowledge, laws, beliefs of the time it was put down on paper. But as always you have no evidence and instead state your beliefs as fact.

3. Finally, whilst I cannot disprove the existence of God I believe the burden of proof rests with the believer. I cannot disprove fairies, Father Christmas, the Grinch, ogres, werewolves, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or sightings of Elvis. But do I think they are real? No. Would I expect those who believe in such nonsense to have better evidence than a quote from a book written by someone who believes in that nonsense? Yes.

I fear that this debate will last for an eternity...

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is pretty much what I understood you meant and upon what I based my comments.  An atheist once told me she believed her death will be no different from that of a termite's death which is similar to what you are saying that "it is all over for us when we die." She, like you, is concerned for her earthly life and not for her eternal life.

Unlike you, I believe in eternity and in eternal life. The four last things are death, judgment, Heaven or Hell.

Eternity is not time and it is not to be described in terms of time. Eternity is outside time altogether and it's a great mystery. Eternal life is a state of existence without time.

Eternity in the absolute sense of the term can only be defined negatively, that is by the exclusion of a beginning, an end, and succession. This God alone enjoys. Boethius taught positive eternity. It is 'the perfect and simultaneous possession of the wholeness of life without beginning or end." Our eternity is relative eternity..it has a beginning and can be ended by the power of the Creater of life.

Eternity with God means the enjoyment by the blessed of everlasting happiness; in contrast to those who deny God, God abandons for an eternity of punishment. See St.Matthew 25:46.

I too have concern for this life, and while striving to obtain better economic, domestic, civil and social conditions, I recognize that happiness here depends largely on knowing, loving and serving God.

You are correct, Earth is finite....The destruction of Earth will come, but when, we know not.  

 

 

Lula,

You say you believe in 'eternity'. You state unequivocally that the last four things a man or woman face are death, judgement, heaven or hell? How do you know these things?

The irony is that the only evidence you provide to support your argument is yet again a quote from a book written around 16 or 17 hundred years ago by a believer (see my point 3 from previous post below). Though you state 'eternity is a mystery' you then go on to describe it! So is eternity a mystery to you or is it not a mystery to you? You quote Matthew stating that 'eternity' is 'everlasting happiness' - and so I assume you believe this and again if you do WHY do you believe this...? What proof do you have?

I will simply reiterate  point 3 from my previous post, which you have not responded to.

3. Finally, whilst I cannot disprove the existence of God I believe the burden of proof rests with the believer. I cannot disprove fairies, Father Christmas, the Grinch, ogres, werewolves, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or sightings of Elvis. But do I think they are real? No. Would I expect those who believe in such nonsense to have better evidence than a quote from a book written by someone who believes in that nonsense? Yes.

So, Lula, in conclusion, how do you know these things?

PS BY the way you are entirely wrong to suggest that I am only concerned for my earthly life. I am actually concerned for my own life, loved ones, greater humanity and other creatures with whom we share this planet. I also do not need to add 'earthly' to it as if eternity in heaven or hell is a given!

 

I know these things because of the supernatural virtue of Faith and God's revelations---written (the Holy Bible) and oral, (Sacred Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church, established by Christ in 30-33AD and given His Divine authority to teach His infallible truths on matters of Faith and morals to all nations until the end of the world.)  

Yes, eternity is a mystery. But that eternity is a mystery has no bearing with believing in it or not. My point was simply we can't measure eternity by time.  

Eternity is a great mystery because the human mind is finite. Mystery is a truth whose immensity surpasses us.

Eternity has no measure. The bliss and joy of Heaven will last for all eternity..as will the torments and pains of Hell.

I believe that because of the hard fact of Christ who came to teach His infallible truths on matters essential to ultimate human happiness. God has told mankind very clearly why He created man, what is the destiny of man and what man must do in order to attain that destiny. He sent the Prophets to teach His will, after that He sent His own Divine Son, Jesus Christ Who said I have Divine Authority to teach, and Christ sent the Church ...which is still teaching with the infallible and will teach until the end of the world.  

Our human reason alone tells us that God exists. If you exist, God exists.

I gave some proofs in my reply 124.