Freedom of Religion

It Doesn't Mean What They Want It To

Published on September 21, 2012 By Jythier In Religion

The government’s got it wrong.

For a while now, there has been a push to redefine what freedom of religion means. Freedom of religion comes from the following:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Here’s what people seem to think it says:

Congress shall not let anybody holding public office exercise their religion. Anybody who works for the government cannot exercise their religion during work hours. All exercise of religion outside of strictly religious organizations is prohibited. Government money cannot go to any religious organization, even if it provides a service better or cheaper than the government could provide.

What I’m saying is that the violation of the Constitution wasn’t when we had the Ten Commandments at the court house. It was when we removed them.

Now we have the issue of the prayer before starting a public meeting. Everybody on the committee agrees with it, but people who aren’t involved are up in arms about it because it brings religion into government. You know what? Those are people in the government. And the law doesn’t say they need to stop praying. The law says that you, concerned citizen, cannot stop them from praying. That’s unconstitutional for you to do.

There’s a bunch of backwards rules that are coming out of the justice system because they can’t even read a document that spells it out clearly. The very law of our nation that is supposed to keep the government from being able to stop us from praying, celebrating, and exercising our religion has been misinterpreted to mean that they MUST stop us.

I would urge any Christian specifically, because most of this seems to apply only to us, to fight back in two ways. One, don’t let them trample on your rights. Two, don’t trample on the rights of other religious groups. If a Muslim wants to pray, too, that’s HIS right and you shouldn’t stop him, either. Show the world that it is religious persecution against the Christians instead of just a societal struggle to eliminate all religion from public life. If it’s not, we’re going to end up in the same place as the other religions. But what it feels like, is that we’re going to end up with a country that doesn’t allow Christianity, but allows every other religion. I hope I’m wrong.

Comments (Page 2)

Jythier

on Oct 15, 2012

There have been over 25,000 archaeological finds that verify things that appear in the Bible.

GirlFriendTess

on Oct 15, 2012

LORD-ORION

reply 1

You can keep your zany beliefs in your own home ... Same goes for atheists, who are becoming as militant as "believers"...

A bit misguided here I think. Christians have always had their homes, schools and churches in which to brainwash their own children, now they want everyone else’s children too. What pray tell are atheists supposed to keep in their homes, ‘churches’ and ‘schools’? If one is to argue against Christian (ANY) doctrine, what arguments are they supposed to make? Personally, I don't care for the radicals on either side and I don’t base my decisions on their aberrant words or behavior. I am sure we are on the same page (mostly) but am not sure what it is that I (an ‘atheist’) am supposed to ‘leave at home’, my encyclopedia or my brain?

Personally I don’t like the term ‘atheist’ because it is much too generic a term which is used in all religious banter being applied to everything (everyone) that (who) disagrees only with one specific doctrine (screw the others). I believe as do almost all theologians … that all the other religions are bogus; I just add one more religion to the list is all, depends only on who I am talking to.

GirlFriendTess

on Oct 15, 2012

NAME ONE!!! The bible was written by people who lived on this earth (all of them) and would be remiss not to include SOME real people, places and things. But that only gives validity that some of the people, places and things existed. It does nothing at all to give credence to the divine concepts you would make pretend are true too.

PS - The first sentence in the article says "Does archaeological evidence prove that the Bible is the divine word of God? No."

quoted from: http://protheist.com/apologetics/bible-apologetics/archaeological-evidence-bible

Jythier

on Oct 15, 2012

Of course that doesn't prove it's the word of God. The way lives change when the Word of God is applied to them is what proves it. The way people following the advice found in the Bible live better proves it. The miserable people who you think lack for nothing but always want something more are the proof that it's the Word of God. The people who spend their life chasing after something, only to find it's not what they need still, and then go after something else, and it's still not what they need, and so on, because what they're looking for is God... but they don't want to find God... that's what proves the Word of God. You can lie to others, and to yourself, but not to God, and not to the Christian, because we know. We know what's missing in your heart, and we want to give it to you, but you don't want to listen. If you tell yourself enough times that you're all right, you will believe yourself. There's not a thing any of us can do to change your mind.

GirlFriendTess

on Oct 15, 2012

I guess you are still incapable of answering even simple questions seemingly preferring to jump from one bogus accusation to another. Just because you freely give your will over to a fictitious doctrine and a completely invisible and impotent golden goose, doesn’t mean I (we) don’t have some reason to live … are you serious? Are you ever serious because your ‘disconnect’ from reality is really appalling. People being the apes we are live for the sole purpose of enlarging the ‘species’ a natural survival trait that afflicts all fauna and flora alike. The only exceptions are when genes go awry or someone allows themselves to become brainwashed into believing otherwise … such as you have. At what point in your misalignment did you come to believe that humans without your divine guidance would (or could) do whatever they want whenever they want to? If you want to test this out, come over to my house and ‘do whatever you want to’ and see what happens. You are so all over the place I am not going to try and make sense out of it.

You are wrong about researching the opposition (like everything else) because I do … it is just YOU that doesn’t. As to morality, if yours comes from the pages of a book then I want no part of them because mine come from the heart and are based on the real world. Who in the world GaS if you like ‘historical’ science (whatever that is) or not, certainly not I? How would you know if my videos mock Christianity, you are still using that god info only divinely retarded computer right? Your idea of discussing evolution is to make quips like “… it doesn’t work” or “… this sample didn’t turn out right so ALL of them are wrong” which tells me what you don’t know. If you want to discuss this by all means do so, but I would advise you to bring a calculator instead of a bible. My guess is you won’t because this is a dead end for biblical realists.

What ‘power’ are the Christians being told they no longer have? Prayer is a euphoric joke just as a heroine high is. With prolonged use, the only difference is the first produces a reality lobotomy and the other death. Do you know what a mantra is and its purpose?

You make a lot of accusations as if they alone have merit, the legacy of a fool. More like Christ huh … let me know when you give your home and car to charity and desert your mealy human family and job to be ‘more Christ like’. I wait with baited breath.

lulapilgrim

on Oct 15, 2012

GirlFriendTess

reply 14

And what pray tell has the USG done to prohibit the free practice of your cult? NAME ONE! You seem to feel that because you vaguely belong to main stream Christianity, you (they) should receive preferential treatment ... WHY???

Pass "Obamacare"....the federal government's unfettered control over the country's health care system which mandates that Christian hospitals, charities, and schools abandon the tenets of the Christian Faith and provide the employees insurance coverage of abortion inducing drugs, contraception and sterilization. This Obamacare anti-conscience mandate is an assault on religious liberty.

Since the passing of Obamacare, every single US Catholic bishop as well as many Protestant pastors, organizations and institutions have strongly denounced this religious persecution.

Understand that religious freedom and conscience rights of millions of Americans who are morally opposed to abortion, contraception, etc. are violated by Obamacare.

Freedom of religion includes more than just freedom of worship..it includes bringing influence to bear in public life. This is freedom to act and speak as a Christian in works of charity..(love of neighbor). And if this is banned from public life, then the public life is undemocratic and intolerent....and there is no peace.

lulapilgrim

on Oct 15, 2012

GirlFriendTess

reply 20

Our job is to be "Christ-like" and Christ calls each one of us. How we do that depends on our vocation or state in life, of which there are 3...the religious, the married and the single.

In the Gospel story, Jesus tells the young man to give up his material possessions and follow Him as an apostle. That's what the religious did in the days of Christ and many Catholic religious orders still do today...some religious orders are more strict than others in living a life of poverty, simplicity and solitude such as the Cistercians, under the rule of St. Benedict.

In the married vocation, the Lord calls us to self-giving as well..by this we are not to give preference to material possessions, or honor over our family or spouse or love for Christ. These earthly goods aren't bad but they are debased when man sets them up as idols and is attached to them instead of using them as instruments for good, for just and charitable undertakings.

Whether in the married, religious or single vocation, our treasure is Christ and our love must be centered on following Him..for where yhy treasure is, there is thy heart also."

GirlFriendTess

on Oct 15, 2012

Why in the world would I want Obama care, or is it another of those things you have decided we atheists are supposed to desire? I could care less what it may or may not do to Christian medicine; I know what it will do to our failing healthcare system. What assault on religious liberties? What in the world are YOU being denied religiously? You are not being forced to use contraceptives but you lobby against them all the while knowing that millions of lives could be spared by their use. You are moral vampires that feed on the poor, the destitute and especially the ignorant. On one hand you peddle everlasting life (after death of course) and eternal suffering (after life of course) without a complete capitulation to whatever you deem proper … and only you. Problem here for me is that you cannot prove either extreme… nor do you offer any middle ground for us simple humans. I would say Inhuman and insane if I were asked. If you and millions of others don’t condone abortions, might I suggest you not have one then. How in the world does someone else having an abortion diminish YOUR religious freedoms? Just for clarity I will repeat myself … YOUR religious freedoms. Abstention is your almighty answer so those that don’t must deserve their preventable suffering, just because huh.

Bringing your influence to public life … what the hell does this mean? Have you been concealing yourselves such that the public is unknowing? Are your doors not open to any and all? Has there been a blackout on religious gatherings, broadcasts or propaganda outlets? Has your publicity branch folded? Is the internet not available to all? Where in the world have I been? Are you insane?

GirlFriendTess

on Oct 15, 2012

lulapilgrim

reply 22

Reply #22 lulapilgrim

At some point you HAVE to understand comprehend that I don’t GaS about your definitions or your misguided conclusions and that I believe ALL bibles to be fictions to be treated as such. If you want to use terms like “the lord calls upon us, etc.”, you had better produce a recording. To my knowledge, the 'lord' has spoken to nobody publically who resides outside an insane asylum. Are you claiming to converse with ’him’ on such a personal level as to know and understand his will too? Hogwash! All you have is hearsay, unsubstantiated magic and here it is the 21st century. Where have you been?

lulapilgrim

on Oct 16, 2012

GFTess:

GirlFriendTess

reply 23

I could care less what it may or may not do to Christian medicine; I know what it will do to our failing healthcare system. What assault on religious liberties? What in the world are YOU being denied religiously?

Lula:

lulapilgrim

reply 4

There is definitely a war on religious freedom....that's is....as long as the religion is Christianity and the last 4 years of Obama's regime have witnessed Obama's radical control over us "the people" in direct violation of the Constitution.

Here's an excellent summary of what I said above.

http://youtu.be/eILPwSOtXxI

lulapilgrim

on Oct 16, 2012

GFTESS, in #14, you asked what has the USG done to prohibit the free practice of your cult? NAME ONE!

I answered pass the 2,700 page "Obamacare" into law..you know, the same one Catholic hypocrite Nancy Pelosi said you have to pass it to know what's in it!

GirlFriendTess

reply 23

Why in the world would I want Obama care, or is it another of those things you have decided we atheists are supposed to desire? I could care less what it may or may not do to Christian medicine; I know what it will do to our failing healthcare system. What assault on religious liberties? What in the world are YOU being denied religiously?

"Obamacare" assaults freedom of religion amongst other things but mostly through its HHS (Health and Human Services) mandate.

Here is an article from a non-Catholic that completely answers your questions.

Forbes
The Audacity of Power: President Obama Vs. The Catholic Church

Charles Kadlec, Contributor 2/12/2012@ 4:35PM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/02/13/the-audacity-of-power-president-obama-vs-the-catholic-church/

“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent.” Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis

In one of the boldest, most audacious moves ever made by a President of the United States, President Barack Obama is on the brink of successfully rendering moot the very first clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” (emphasis added). If he forces the Catholic Church to comply with the Health and Human Services ruling to provide its employees with insurance that covers activities the Church has long held sinful — abortion via the morning after pill, sterilization and contraceptives — then the precedent is clear: when religious beliefs conflict with government decrees, religion must yield.

The story line that President Obama miscalculated in picking this fight with the Catholic Church vastly underestimates the man’s political skill and ambition. His initial approval of the ruling requiring the Church pay for abortion drugs and sterilization was but the first step in a calculated strategy to further his goal of transforming America.

President Obama chose to pick this fight with the Catholic Church by choosing to release the regulations first, and then, as he explained in last Friday’s statement to the press, spend “the next year (before the new regulations take effect) to find an equitable solution that would protect religious liberty and insure that every woman has access to the care that she needs.” The alternative would have been to find the “equitable solution” before announcing the regulations. In other words, this entire political fire storm is a set-up by the Administration.

The original HHS ruling put the Catholic Church into the position of choosing one of these two options:

Option A: The Church complies with the law and violates its own teachings and principles of faith. Such a choice would strip the Church of its legitimacy and make it a de facto vassal of the state. In this case, the ability of the Church to challenge the government’s political power is vastly reduced, if not completely destroyed. Faith, charity and civil society are marginalized. Government wins.

Option B: The Church as a matter of conscience refuses to obey the law, and stops offering health insurance to its employees. In this case, the Church gets crushed by hundreds of millions of dollars in fines. As a consequence, its ability to fulfill its religious mission by funding hospitals, schools and charities is sharply reduced if not destroyed. As the Church is forced to withdraw from its active role in civil society, those who believe in government will rush to fill the void. Faith, charity and civil society are marginalized. Government wins.

The risk to President Obama was the Church would create “Option C” and engage in a broad political battle to force the full repeal of the ruling or, if that fails, the defeat of President Obama in the November election followed by the repeal of ObamaCare. Under Option C, government’s power is reduced. Faith, charity and civil society win.

President Obama’s political skill is demonstrated by his anticipation and preparation for just this outcome. First, he has used the issue to energize his political base by positioning his Administration as the defender of “women’s health” and attacking his opponents for taking him up on his implicit dare to make it an issue in the Presidential campaign.

Second, last Friday’s decision to “retreat,” as proclaimed by the weekend Wall Street Journal’s page 1 headline and find a way to “accommodate” religious freedom, was pure subterfuge. The notion of retreat or compromise is pure spin. The President’s operative statement reflected zero tolerance for those that would disagree with his policies.

He announced: (the imperial) “we’ve reached a decision on how to move forward. Under the rule, women will still have access to free preventive care that includes contraceptive services -– no matter where they work. So that core principle remains (emphasis added). But if a woman’s employer is a charity or a hospital that has a religious objection to providing contraceptive services as part of their health plan, the insurance company -– not the hospital, not the charity -– will be required to reach out and offer the woman contraceptive care free of charge, without co-pays and without hassles.

Got that? The insurance company will be required to offer the service, but will be forbidden from explicitly billing the Catholic organization for providing this benefit. Such a construct is a fraud. Of course the employer will have to pay for these benefits. And, even if they didn’t, the Church is still being forced to support what it believes are sinful acts. This “equitable solution” is simply an attempt to soften the blow of forcing the Catholic Church to accommodate the dictates of the now supreme federal government. It’s a face saving version of Option A.

Before our very eyes, President Obama is on the verge of establishing the principle that the right to religious freedom comes not from our Creator, but from those who rule us. A government endowed right granted to women now trumps our unalienable right to act in accordance with our religious beliefs and conscience. Not only does this overturn the First Amendment, it also tramples the nation’s founding principles as announced in the Declaration of Independence. Such an achievement would be the true audacity of power.

The fundamental question is whether the Catholic Church, and by extension, individual Americans have to engage in activities according to the rulings of this and future Presidents, or are we free to live our lives as we choose as long as we do not harm another. Are we free to engage in long standing religious practices that have never before been deemed unlawful, or has the federal government established a de facto state “religion” that it is prepared to enforce through the full coercive power of its financial resources and the imposition of financial penalties.

If the Catholic Church and the American people choose the face saving “Option A” instead of “Option C,” then President Obama will have transformed America. We may be allowed the illusion of exercising our freedom, but in truth, we will be subjects in ObamaLand, required to do the bidding of this and future Presidents in the name of some higher, collective good.

However, the Catholic Church can turn the tables on the President by taking Option A off the table with a humble statement of principal that in the matters of religious practices and conscience, there is a higher authority than government Who it chooses to obey. If President Obama prevails and unleashes the full force of the federal government against the Church, the cost will be the closing of Catholic schools, hospitals and the loss of social services that play a vital part in communities across the nation. Such a stand would make clear to the American people that the alternative to religious freedom would be a mortal wound to our civil liberties and a complete disruption of civil society.

I am not a Catholic, nor do I believe in the Church’s opposition to contraception. But I pray that the leadership of the Catholic Church will have the faith and courage to stand for its core beliefs and use all of its moral power and political influence to defeat the President’s edict. I pray they will reach out across the political spectrum to people of all faiths, agnostics and atheists in the name of religious freedom and individual liberty. By so doing, they, and the institution of the Catholic Church, will have my love and respect for the rest of my life.

Jythier

on Oct 16, 2012

Any health care reform that supposedly is fixing women's reproductive health issues, and is allowing them choice, but makes contraception coverage required but not midwifery care is absolutely idiotic.

lulapilgrim

on Oct 16, 2012

GFTESS:

GirlFriendTess

reply 6

The first amendment to the constitution grants you this much …

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

GFTESS:

GirlFriendTess

reply 6

The constitution guarantees you nothing special, why should it (?) ... it is all in your mind.

The U.S. Constitution acknowledges and guarantees free exercise of religion...that fundamental right is indeed something special to many, many people of different religions. Pluralism is alive and well in the USA.

GirlFriendTess

reply 6

If you honestly believe this gives you some “RIGHT” to do and say whatever you want, then you are just being religiously foolish as usual.

No one has said the Constitutional free exercise of religion gives the right to do and say whatever we want.

GirlFriendTess

reply 9

I am afraid there are other religions that would love a piece of that corrupt pie. Unlike you, I feel all religions should be given the same ‘consideration’ and that would be none at all.

Religious pluralism is a demographic fact in the USA...and that seems to be what the Founders wanted in the American experiment.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and all the pagan religions, as well as Secular and Atheist Humanism are included in the First Amendment.

The attacks against free exercise of religion is focused on Christianity and that's what Jythier brought up in his article.

Jythier

reply 7

Your hatred of my religion still doesn't give the government the right to prohibit the free exercise of my religion.

Well said, Jythier. You've pegged it...hatred of Christianity seems to be the gist of it.

lulapilgrim

on Oct 16, 2012

GirlFriendTess

reply 14

You seem to feel that because you vaguely belong to main stream Christianity, you (they) should receive preferential treatment ... WHY??? I and others have told you repeatedly that we (free thinkers) consider ALL religions foolish to the point of idiocy. But as usual, you and your brethren feel compelled to make this ridiculous argument anyway, that it is just the poor misunderstood Christians that are being denied their "RIGHTS", nothing but pure conceit.

As to "free thinkers"....I agree with Jythier's brilliant response.

Jythier

reply 15

The problem with your free thinking is that it leaves being alive as idiocy. Why live with no purpose? Even better, why live with any moral compass with no higher accountability for your actions?

So, purposeless, no better than animals in their minds, with no moral compass, you will live and do 'whatever you want' and feel opressed by the laws that say you can't do things. Laws that say a man marries a woman, laws that say abortion is infanticide, laws that say pornography is illegal, laws that allow certain people to have more than you.

You will march and say that it's wrong to enforce a moral code upon you, but your own march that it's wrong will show that you believe in a moral code as well. Except that your moral code isn't defined, ancient, relevant, or helpful to society or individuals. It's the next oldest code - that men should do what feels right. And that will only lead to our destruction as a society, and your destruction as individuals.

"Free thought" has been the nice sounding phrase that the Atheist crowd has played like a fiddle.

Any thinking person understands that "free thought" is an absurdity because thought is not free at all, rather, it is subject to the law of thought. For example, if 2 x 2 = 4, then we are not free to say it equals 5. If right is right and wrong is wrong, we are not free to say that right is wrong, and wrong is right. Thought is not free. What is free is your will, your power to reckon correctly or incorrectly, to do what you know to be right or wrong.

GirlFriendTess

reply 14

GFTess:

Here's something to consider. It's reasonable, if by "free thought", you mean freedom of inquiry, or investigation in order to learn the truth of the matter studied. But the question of freedom to investigate is not in the minds of advocates of "free thought" as shown by what you've been indicating here in this discussion.

You mean freedom to deny God and the moral law as interpreted by His revealed one true Christian religion.

GirlFriendTess

reply 24

Ya, I know "free thinkers" invariably assume that the intellect of believers, especially Catholics, is enslaved because Faith is the starting point of their study and acceptance of belief in the existence of the one Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Don't you realize that when these "free thinkers" send their children to school, they do so with the command that they do what they did, that is accept upon faith in their teachers, the belief that 2 x 2=4. Are the minds of those children free? Assuredly not. They are bound for life to the arithmetic they accepted from their teachers on faith. But objection is raised by "free thinkers" when the same principle, the same process, is followed in the sphere of religion, especially the Christian one.

GirlFriendTess

on Oct 16, 2012

Lula that is nothing but an advertisement for Romney. Bet it is tough to swallow the Mormon stuff though. Even if you can tolerate it I'll bet your perceived master won't be influenced by politics like you are. It is not like we have any options, as usual. You just don't get itthough. Anyway you are thinking way to small here ... try ~15 Trillion and you will be on my page.

PS - seems you have been buisy, geeze.

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