Argh, I agree with Lula. He wills all to be saved, but they aren't all saved... it can't be on God that people aren't saved. It's on people.

Why can't it be? Back it up.

How do you answer John 1:13?

T.A.

if you read what I've been writing you'd see I believe in BOTH election and freewill. Election is God chooses us to be in the family of God. Freewill is our response AFTER the election. We are free to love, honor and obey God just like we are free to love, honor and obey our parents after being born the first time.

This is God's wish, but not decree since not all will be saved.

And the ones who were not elected don't have Freewill?

Your example is flawed. ALL children ARE allowed (i.e. elected in your terminology) to love, honer and obey. according to you God only PERMITS some and does not PERMIT others.

What a strange idea about God you have.

There is confusion allover the place.

God doesnt know the future because it didnt happen yet; If God knows what we will do it means we have no freewill; God have laws and ordered us to follow them and still God elects people to heaven regardless of their actions; Someone already paid for all our sins etc ....... !!!!!

This thread is a very clear indication why some people dont believe in God's existence in the first place.

If we only rely on God's OWN words and not on writings by others who injected what they think in His Own words we won't be in this state of confusion.

God help us all in our search for the truth.

John 1:12-13 says:

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— [13]children born not of natural descent,[a] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

Receiving comes before being children of God, right there. You can't decide to be God's child, you decide to receive Him. Then, God accepts you as His child.

LULA POSTS:



Oh KFC, you're grasping at straws. If it were God's decree, then man would not have free will.


Because God is love, He asks the freely given love of man and not a compelled love. Because He is just, He will not deprive man of free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of God for even His power does not extend to contradictory things.

Men cannot be free to love and serve God, without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him. We cannot have it both ways. Even God, if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness or belief, He takes away freedom. If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it.

He gives all of us the means (graces)of His gift of salvation, however, these graces and His gift is not received by all.


Let's look at the entire passage and take it its meaning full circle.

1Tim 2:3-4, "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God's desire that all be saved is shown in the pastoral Epistles as He is often given the title, "Savior". We know that He desired to be Savior to all, right?

He came to earth because He wanted to redeem the whole world, right? While we are at work, a mall, a crowded beach, or even in Church, shoulder to shoulder with so many, never forget that there is no soul, sinners though we all are, that does not matter to Christ! That's what I was pointing out about the Laodiceans.

Just as GOd desires man's salvation, He desires man to be free. By making man free He has made it possible for man to cooperate in attaining his end. It says that God desires "all men to come to the knowledge of truth." The truth is firstly Jesus and this "knowledge" is not just an intellectual grasp of truth, it is something which should have an impact on one's everyday life. Knowledge of the faith involves practice of the faith and when man has knowledge of the faith and practices the faith, then he is cooperating in attaining his end....just as GOd desires him to do.

that's right.....that's why I said it's NOT his decree. If it were His decree than all would be saved. Freewill is what got us in the mess today. But it wasn't the freewill of election, it was the freewill of obedience. Adam and Eve had no say in the matter of belonging to the family of God. They had a relationship with him. They walked and talked with him. They were "saved." Their freewill came AFTER that and had to do with obedience, not election. They lost their position relationally, not positionally.

His desire is that all men would be saved, but not all will. We are all destined for hell. All of us. But by his mercy he saved some! That's what grace and mercy are all about. We don't deserve what we are getting. We all have broken his laws, so therefore we all deserve to be punished. All of us. As soon as we say we chose him, it makes some of us better than others. I'm better than you, and smarter because I had the intelligence to pick God out myself.



He's saying that we need to receive God before we can be a child of God right? I think we're in agreement here. But now...how do we receive him if we are dead in our sins?

That's where V13 comes in. He explains it....it's not by the flesh (that's us). It's not by the willl (that's us again). It's by God. It's plain. It's God. So I'd say you have it backwards. God accepts you as his child and then you receive him. First things first. Think about the Eunuch. Think about what happened to Phillip in relation to the Eunuch.

Just like later in John 3 when Nicodemus asks how to be born again. Jesus says by water and the spirit and then explains it by saying we don't know when or where the spirit will land. It's all spirit. It's not about flesh or will. It's not about us.

Do you understand what predestination means? It means "to ordain beforehand, to predetermine."

I heard of a professor who once said..."Try to explain election and you may lose your mind. Try to explain it away and you may lose your soul."

Salvation begins with God, not man. It starts with regeneration. The lost sinner left to his own ways does not seek God (Romans 3:10-11). God in His love seeks the sinner (luke 19:10).

Going back to John Calvin, Martin Luther, D.L. Moody, Charles Hadden Spurgeon (prince of Preachers)etc you would see they all clearly saw election was the Sovereign work of God. It's only been in the last century or so that freewill has taken such a stronghold. It's bad theology. You see them with "Freewill" on the nameplates of their churches. You see it in the praise and worship songs now. And then there are some churches now wishing to be reformed. They see all this and wish to stay true to scripture. My own denomination is split over this wondering if they should come up with a position. So far none has been taken.

Many of the modern commentators that believe this FW theology are stumped as to what to do with these very strong election sections of scripture. Usually they ignore them because they can't reconcile it. When we were studying Romans not long ago, it was quite obvious to see this done, because Romans is filled with election scripture that's hard to refute.

Also another angle here. Look at Joshua 24:15 where Joshua says...
"choose you this day which god you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

Now, what was he talking about? He didn't say choose God as some think. Look at it carefully and you'll see that these rebels were trying to decide which god to choose out of two pagan gods. Go ahead, says Joshua, you go ahead and choose which pagan god you wish to worship. As for me and my house, we will SERVE the Lord. Notice he didn't say "choose." Joshua knew. It's God who does the choosing. It's us who do the obeying. This verse was what did it for our Assoc Pastor who comes from a family of preachers. He came into our church as a freewill believer and is now a staunch election believer. He defends election readily and vigoriously now.

To say anything diff you're going to run smack into trouble trying to reconcile it all together. And Jythier, if your pastor is FW....which I suspect he is, bring him these scriptures and play the devil's advocate and see which scriptures hold up in light of the others. Throw in John 6:37 and Eph 1:4 for good measure....LOL.

Yip yip yip

I actually don't know if my pastor is election or free will. Hmmmmmmm. Welcome back, btw, how was your trip?

Hi KFC,

A while ago I asked you what election is. It's confusing because here in this last post like most of all the others in which you describe election vs. free will, in one sentence I agree and then the next that follows, I disagree.

So from what you write here is predestination "election"?

Also, do you think that people are "elected" individually or as believers as a group?

gotta get that fixed SC.   



Thanks Jythier, I just assumed he was by the way you're speaking and also because that is the modern prevalent attitude nowadays. Probably shouldn't assume...my bad. So now I'm curious....how come you don't know?

I'm still on the trip, hubby watches TV and I play on his laptop checking my email and stuff. Not much time but can't resist squeezing in and saying hi to ya all!!



not quite getting ya here Lula? Whatchamean? What do you agree with and what exactly do you disagree with?



Predestination is what God does for saved people. Election is related to "people" while predestination seems to relate to "purposes." The events having to do with the cross of Christ were predestined as we see in Acts 4:25-28. We see here in Eph 1:5 that God has predestined our adoption and in 1:11 our future inheritance. He also predestined our conformity to Christ (Romans 8:29-30).

People are elected individually. While he "chose" Israel as a nation, not all were automatically chosen as individuals. He chose the nation much the same way he chooses us as individuals...to be a light to those around us, to bear his name and for us to be his people and he our God.

There is NO group or denomination that has elected privledges. We as Christians are individually made up to be the body of Christ so together we would be considered as the Jews in the OT were. Chosen by God for a purpose.

"How come you don't know?"

Because he doesn't talk about it. I don't think it's all that important, really, once you're saved... you've been elected... or free-will chose it... either way, Pastor doesn't care, you're saved. I mean, he may care, but he cares less about whether God chose or you chose, and more about the fact they ARE saved... you know?

KFC POSTS:

Take reply 83..I agree with some and disagree with some and sometimes they are statement from the same paragraph! You said it from the beginning election and free will leads to much discussion and argumentation.

And doesn't this lead to a bigger question? The problem of a pastor from one denomination being so differently aligned on believing in one "election" or the other "free will" is telling. There is only one Holy SPirit guiding and directing us when reading to understand Sacred Scriputre. How can there be so many different interptetations of the same key passages that would lead one pastor to believe in election and another one reading believe in free will?

Well, just look at the Catholic Church. They have a completely different understanding of Revelations as a whole from KFC and me, so I can see how election/free will could get buggered up too.