So, you've noticed!




Interesting use of the word "buggered" up!

Well, it's the right word. I'm honestly still not sure what's true between election and free will right now, except I know we have free will for our actions, before and after coming to God. But can we choose God? That's the question, and I should search for that answer.

Lula says, "Yes."
KFC says, "No."

I say, "I think yes, but I have not read every scripture yet."

Of course it is. I was just teasing you a bit, that's all. When I was growing up I heard the term 'bugger' quite frequently. But of late, it's taken on a whole different meaning.


I knew exactly what you meant and that's good communication...getting one's point of view across effectively.

Re the last 50 posts or so.

Who am I supposed to believe is right here? Dare I think about it on my own? Nah, I'll just wait until Lula and KFC have it all figured out so they can tell the rest of us what to think. Unless someone comes along that makes THEM think. Which isn't going to happen, because they're both so busy knowing it all that if a messenger from God walked up and hit them over the head with a sleeve of saltine crackers they wouldn't even feel it. They already both know what the answer is - except their answers are in disagreement with each other. Now how could THAT be?

Ock,

A sleeve of saltine crackers?

Nonwithstanding the crackers, debates like this are great for thinking things through. However, we're currently dealing with two individuals who have read, understood, and come to different conclusions. Thus, they are both very stubborn in their positions and impossible to move, especially KFC because she has already moved from free-will to election.

Notwithstanding that, why do you care? We're just Christians here, and Christians obviously don't use their brains - we just read a book. I would appreciate you either being the one that makes THEM(or me) think, or contributing your own thoughts on the subject.

A sleeve of saltine crackers?

The imagery seemed more humorous (as well as gentle) than, say, a tire iron.

I would appreciate you either being the one that makes THEM(or me) think, or contributing your own thoughts on the subject.

I have posted my views which are summarily dismissed by you experts, so I won't rehash them again.

As for my last post, it ended with a question. Dunno about you, but questions make me think. And aside from the question at the end, there is an implicit question in the rest of the post, which was completely missed...for some reason. That question is "How are humans supposed to "get it right" when even two people who have obviously studied this work to a very great extent can't agree on something it says?

If it didn't make YOU think, well, I can't really control that. It might make someone else think, though.

Want a cracker?

That post ended with a less thoughtful question than the first one.

Here's the deal. Humans aren't going to get everything right. But the main point is clear - God loves us, as shown by Jesus dieing for us. Satan hates us, as shown by his overall conduct throughout history as the accuser, and tempter, etc.

As for the actual election vs. freewill question, does it matter if God called you or you chose him? Not really. You're still going to be saved. And if God doesn't call you, or you don't choose him, you won't be saved. Doesn't really matter how you get there.

Of course, in deciding whether to serve Him, you might want to know what kind of God He is. But, for that, I defer you back to the main point - God loves us, Satan hates us. You're going to serve one of the two.

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:


The answer lies in the doctrinal differences between Catholicism and Protestant Fundamentalism.

We discover, by the joining in of other's respective views, that religion has ever been one of the most interesting things to us under the sun...and people get excited about what they believe in. This is because religion is fundamentally one of the deepest things in all of us.

To Christian believers, it's the Christian essentials that count. Most of the time, we are in complete agreement or, after the explanantion is given, partial agreement. Either way, the information that is given is of great value knowing that we are searching for truth. Why? Because it's good to know not only that other people think differently, but in what way they they differ from you.

Finally, we've seen that some Catholic doctrines are flat out contradition to Protestant ones. At this point, we weigh the force of the reasons for one over the other.

At the same time, remember that one can dislike another's doctrines without disliking the person. Sometimes, my replies seem rather hard on others beliefs, but do not regard it as my being hard on them for it's not meant to be. Not one word is intended to hurt personally. This is especially true of KFC.

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:

I can only speak for myself and how I think I know that I've "got it right" as you say.

To start, I hope (that I've got it right in my search for truth) with a broad mind and I hope still more with a Catholic mind.

It's precisely to make sure that I'm not mistaken in the supremely important matters of religion, especially doctrine and morals, that I cling to the Catholic Church which cannot be mistaken in these 2 areas, but must be right because Christ promised such. Almighty God knew that sincere people would make mistakes and not "get it right" (again in these 2 areas) that He deliberately established an infallible Church to preserve them from error (only in these 2 areas) where it is the most important that they should not go wrong.

100 replies!!!! yay.

BTW just in case no one is paying attention, if yer not a JEW you are all doomed anyway!

Thanks MM, I rarely get centenial posts...

"Yay, we're doomed!"

"No GIR, that's bad."

"Aaaaw."

Not one word is intended to hurt personally.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Is it not possible to get so mired in dogma that you miss the entire point? Most of this entire discussion, draped in the clothes of discussing doctrine, is about who gets eternal life and why. When offered alternative ways of looking at things, all camps dig in and begin to rifle through their own personal citations of 'fact' to defend their positions. It's just war of an intellectual variety which ultimately seeks to kill (metaphorically) the group it sees as "alien" and is no different from any other war.

The minute a person claims knowledge is the minute they lose all chance of ever actually having it.

And still I am left musing. If an actual messenger of God were to show up and try to explain some things to you, what would it look like? The lord works in mysterious ways...it might be another human, your parents, a pastor, some random guy on the street, but if your "search for the truth" involves digging in anytime someone suggests something that isn't in accordance with what you've already convinced yourself of, then how will you ever get the message?

I need to tell you something...

I don't have a belly button.

Someone's been watching just a tad too many Veggietales.

Never too much Veggietales, though.

Whether they admit it or not, everyone is searching for truth, Ock. There is only one truth. The Truth is in possession.


The truth that I speak of should be the same truth established by Our Lord, Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life...and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Each one of us has truth written on our heart from the moment of our conception. The Lord God has established His truth to the world by His good and protective laws found in Scripture and in the rich Deposit of Faith of the Church. We are called to obey. Those who fear (love) the Lord and follow His laws will be rerwarded in their earthly life and in eternal life. "To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom " Sirach 1:14. Those who reject and rebel and choose to live according to the ways of the world will reap what the world offers--heartache, sorrow, pain, brokenness, jealousy, hatred, violence, etc., etc., etc.

In short, the world is not in possession of truth. In fact, the world denies Truth.

It seems to me that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions only if the one searching for truth is sincerely searching in all the wrong places.


Concerning truth---I submit the Scriptural passage of Pontius Pilate's conversation with Christ just before He was given over to be crucified.

"Pilate went into the hall again and called Jesus and said to Him, "Art thou the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, Sayest thou this thing of thyself or have others told it thee of me? Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Thy own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee up to me: what hast thou done?" Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence. Pilate said, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus answered, "Thou sayest that I am a King." For this I was born and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony of the truth. Everyone that is of the truth, heareth my voice. Pilate said to him, "What is truth?" ANd when he said this he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, I find no cause in him."