Will read Chapter 9 of Romans and get back to you, KFC.

I like to hear your opinions though, even if they're not good enough.

well I look at it like we choose and God knows.



This is true.

But it doesn't mean we don't have freewill. It's just that God knows beforehand what that freewill is for us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. As a parent I've said those words to my child...."I know you better than you know you." Have you ever said that? And I'm not God. God is way superior than I. He knows much more about me than I do my own children.



yes.

KFC POSTS:


Whereever did you get this idea KFC? You are forgetting that God created us with the sense of Him (the Natural or Moral Law) written on our heart. We are created in His image and Likeness for Heaven's sake. What do you mean we can't (in capitals) choose God?
These Scriptural passages that you quote prove none of this.

Yes, the gates of Heaven were closed to us due to the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. But, in their despair for having sinned, God in His Infinite mercy forgave them, and gave them the promise of the Redeemer. Yes, ever since then, we are born predisposed with Original Sin.

By His bloody atonement, Christ freed man from the bond of sin.
Jesus opened the gates of Heaven which were closed by the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. At His death, Jesus made salvation for ALL men possible. God wills all men to be saved, but not against their free will. Man was left free to decide whether or not he would love God and live according to the teachings of Jesus or contrary to them.


KFC POSTS:


This verse you cited from Romans doesn't support your statement that we can't choose God becasue we are so spiritually blind or dead.

The verse shows us the sorry state of affairs from Original and personal sin. What did St.Paul mean by "none is righteous, not one....?" We know these words should not be taken as referring to absolutely, literally everyone. For example we know that infants aren't capable of personal sin. And there have always been just and devout people, like Noah, Abraham and Moses who received divine grace and were enabled to do good works by virtue of the future merits of Christ. Catholics believe the Blessed Virgin Mary was exempted from the stain of all sin.

If taken from context, St.Paul is dealing with the general guilt of sin. He first questions the advantage of the Jews and agrees that they have precedence as the first chosen bearers of the promise, but at the same time he sees them included in the sinfulness of men.

This verse, 9-10 that he cites is taken from Psalm 13:1 (for you maybe 14:1) which was written at the time of the general corruption of man before our Redemption by Christ and before the gates of Heaven were opened. Here, it's clear he concludes that no group of people Jew or Gentile are sinless, that all are under the guilt of sin. He's teaching that all men are sinners and no one can be justified by the works of the Mosaic Law, but only by faith and grace of Christ.

KFC POSTS:

I'm curious about this....that God killed an animal to clothe them. My Douay Rheims and NAB versions of Genesis 3:7 have it as: "And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves and made themselves aprons (loinclothes)."

Regarding predestination:

Jythier posts:



On this one, KFC, we are diametrically opposed.

This is a fatalistic Calvinist doctrinal belief that all that is was eternally and unchangeably decreed by God. It holds that salvation and damnation are caused solely by the will of God, irrespective of the merits or demerits of the individual. It's an old Catholic condemned heresy revived in the 16th century through Luther's denial of free will in sinners or freedom in the use of grace, which the Chruch says we receive through the merits of Christ.

Catholics believe in predestination, but not in the Calvinistic sense for it denies 2 basic Catholic teachings..that the will is free and that God gives man the grace necessary to gain salvation.
We have God's word and a sense of understanding in the power of man to harmonize himself with the will of God so as to receive the grace necessary for salvation.

There is no such thing as predestination to Hell. To every one God gives sufficient grace for salvation and every man can be saved by corresponding with it. Therefore, if any one is lost, it's through his own fault.

We believe in predestination in the sense that GOd decreed from the beginning of creation that man, by cooperating with God's grace, by obedience to the Commandments, will be saved. God foreknows, but does not forecause eternal death or eternal life.

One can understand the expression 'destined for Hell" in the sense of the soul of the man who will certainly go to Hell if he remains in grevious mortal sin without contrition or repentance of it and even with that degree of guilt, we do not know whether or not a supreme act of God's mercy has intervened between the sin and the actual death of the person.

There is a predestination for a specially chosen few who are given very special graces over and above the ordinary distrubution, as in the case of St.Paul who though a Pharisee, was predestined to his Apostolate. He was given a special providence of God with which God that the individual will certainly correspond.

When God blesses some persons with graces that others do not receive, has been and ever will be a mystery, for the judgments of God are inscrutable.

I love this answer!

I dont know the answers to the test, just because I looked at them already!

No, Sorry, that I will never buy or agree with.

I can give you hundreds of verses Lula. I thought the one in Romans was pretty easy to understand. How about Eph 2:1?

And you has he quickened who were DEAD in trespasses and sins?"

What can a dead man do?

How about Jesus himself? He said..."you did not choose me, I chose you."

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD to sins, should live to righteousness by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

Again, what can a dead man do? The reason for the whole incarnation was because we were dead. "Let the dead bury the dead." His birth, death and resurrection is what makes us alive. He is proof as the firstfruit that we too will follow...just as the firstfruit of the barley crop, given to God in ceremony, was a promise of more to come. That's what the Feast of Firstfruits in Lev 23 was all about.

There's alot behind this...don't have time to go into it...but look at Gen 3:21.

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins and clothed them."

He provided for them the first blood sacrifice that would more than cover them physically. It would restore them to him, not like before, but a restoration nonetheless and this was a precurser for when the ultimate sacrifice would be made thousands of years later.

Later under Moses and the law this sacrificial system would be law. Christ was the end of this system. He was the final sacrifice that appeased God for all time.



The Catholics deny this because of the whole works based system Lula. They wish and want to be thinking they HAVE to do something to gain heaven. Luther figured this out and that's what started the whole ball rolling.

I also believe that God gives man the grace necessary to gain salvation. I've said that many times. That doesn't contradict election. The will is free I agree with that also.....and our free will DOES NOT choose God, because we are DEAD in our sins.

Remember we're talking two diff things...freewill and election. I believe scripture is clear that election is God choosing us for salvatin and I believe freewill is our response AFTER salvation.

KFC POSTS:

Once a person is dead (physically), it's too late to answer what can he do.

Let's read further on in this passage you cite and see if it helps us come to an agreement theologically speaking.

"Any you He made alive, when you were dead through trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of the world...."


Up until the time of Christ's death on the Cross, the gates of heaven were closed. In that sense we could agree that all were spritually dead (lost) in our sins.

After Christ's death, everything changed. The gates of Heaven were opened. Read the part that I highlighted, do you see it says WERE dead? That's what tells the story. We WERE spiritually dead, but are no longer. Following that it says, which you ONCE WALKED again indicating that everything changed.

You KFC, said it yourself here:


"becasue we WERE dead. We aren't dead anymore exactly becasue of Christ. Everything hinges on Christ.

Thanks KFC, for the lesson about the animal skins. I was only aware of the fig leaves loincloth. Of course, up until the sin, there was no killing animals. They all lived together in peaceful harmony.

I understand and agree with the rest of your commentary. It's right on.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:



Yes, on this the Church is right and Luther was wrong. After reading St.Paul to the Romans 3:28, in a manner not intended by the author, Luther impudently perverted the text and "figured out" the false doctrine of "saved by faith alone", Sola Fides. And you're quite correct, Protestants have been rolling with this ball ever since.   Luther didn't like St.James and you know why? St.James dealt with the same subject as St.Paul on faith and works, and said, "Faith unless it has works is dead in itself." 1:17-18.

Luther's teaching that "faith alone justifies" was condemned by the Council of Trent becasue it clearly contradiced Sacred Scripture.

Luther's teachings on faith and Christ's teachings on faith aren't the same thing. Faith with Luther meant a man's confidence that all his sins, past present and future, had been forgiven by God for Christ's sake. CHrist and His Apostles always taught that faith implied the acceptance of all GOd's Revelation on His word.
Other dispositions are required, for we must not only believe, we must hope, repent and love.

The Lutheran doctrine that God does not impute a sin which really exists is a contradiction in terms, never met with in Sacred Scripture. When God forgives sins, our sins are taken away, blotted out, exhausted, and removed from us as far as the east is from the west. They are never remembered again.

Sola Fide is a false doctrine of Luther becasue it destroys the very essence of supernatural faith. Faith may be defined as a supernatural virtue which disposes the mind to assent freely, with certainity and on the authority of God to all the truths He revealed. It's essentially an intellectual act as St.Paul teaches. 1Cor 8:12; 2Cor 10:5. St.Paul defines it as "the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." Heb.11:1.

The assent of faith is directed by the will under the influence of Divine grace. The will plays a most important part. Romans 10:10, St.Paul says that "with the heart, (i.e. a good will)we believe unto justice."

Our Lord frequently attributed the unbelief of the Jews to the hardness of their heart and their obstinancy of will. StMark 3:5; 16:13; St.Luke 24:25.



Regarding Salvation, Catholic teaching is that it's a gift of God; that by Christ's death, man passed from spiritual slavery to freedom, that is, become adopted children in the kingdom of God. Jesus demands payment for personal salvation. His price is faith, expressed in works of love for God and neighbor.



Your're describing the doctrine of merit which is expressly taught in many passages of the NT. Merit is the value attached by God to our good deeds, which we freely perform by the help of divine grace. The CC has always taught that merit rested,not as Luther falsely asserted, on any absolute right to reward in the works themselves, but on the express promise of God to reward faithful service to Him by grace here and glory afterward. 2Tim.4:7.

I apologize this reply is long-winded. I think it important though to get all the theological arguments out on the table.

But this passage in Eph is NOT talking physical...it's talking spiritual death. We are dead in our sins EVEN THO we are walking around. It seems like we're alive but we're not. We're dead. We're dead until we're born again. He's saying, before you came to the Lord you were dead.



Well not really...in a way yes. But we see from the OT that many were ALIVE then...like Abraham was found righteous (made alive) in God's eyes before he had done anything (election). God chose Abraham to be the seed for the Hebrew Nation to be born from. David was chosen as well as all the others and Christ had not died yet. They looked forward in faith to the promise as we look back.

The way you're talking it's like everybody in the whole world is now alive spiritually. At least that's how I'm taking it. Read that again including your highlights and put Paul's name there.

"And PAUL He made alive, when HE WAS dead through trespasses and sins in which HE once walked, following the course of the world...."

ok, now how was Paul made alive from being dead? Remember he was on the way to kill Christians when HE met God. Notice WHO made WHO alive! So is this election or freewill?



Yes, I agree with all this...but the question is....How are we made alive? Is it OOUR doing or is it God's doing? Is it freewill or is it Election? That is the question.

I'm not even going to go to bat on #56 Lula. Been there, done that with you and you already know how I feel so it would only be redundant. Besides it's getting off topic.

ha Lula,....I think we chased everyone away...AGAIN! Where's Jythier?

Reading Romans 9!

KFC, are you saying that God calls, chooses, however you want to say it, and then we have the freewill to answer or not answer?

If this is the case... is it not possible that God chooses everyone?

Romans 11:32

"For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

KFC POSTS:

KFC, All these men, Abraham, David and St.Paul were specially chosen by God. All these men would fall into the Catholic understanding of predestination.

Also, Catholics believe the Sacrament of Baptism, through the Holy Spirit, gives the grace necessary wipes away the stain of Original Sin. These three men of the OT, had the graces necessary to overcame the stain of Original Sin through circumcision.

I disagree though when you say:



The dominant thing in Abraham's life was his obedience to GOd. Obedience is doing something. He was given the supreme test in answer to a command from God, Abraham freely, willingly offered his son for sacrifice.

Abraham was justified by faith but that faith in GOd was seen in a deed, offering his son Isaac for sacrifice. It was not the sacrifice, it was the faith that caused Abraham to be justified.




There is a predestination for a specially chosen few who are given very special graces over and above the ordinary distrubution. St.Paul, once a Pharisee, was predestined to his Apostolate. He was given a special providence of God.

St.Paul converted, believed in Christ as the Messias, and was baptised into the Body of Christ.




Catholics believe Christians are made alive as you say by our Baptism. The rebirth is brought about by an exterior thing, water and the Holy SPirit, the gift of Christ administered in the name of the Father, of the SOn and Of the Holy Spirit. It causes a change in our whole being..and Original Sin is removed. By Baptism we are made alive (given supernatural grace).

Rebirth like birth comes from God.

Ya, I hear ya...but you brought up Luther here and I couldn't resist.