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Why not both?
Published on August 2, 2007 By Jythier In Religion
A lot of people seem to struggle with the concept of free will vs. destiny in Christianity. A lot of times, I think that people refuse to admit just how big God really is. A lot of times, free will is thought of as the ability to make your own decisions. You have that, for sure. God said so, in His book. But he also said some other things which sounds very contradictory to that. He mentions, in His book, that He knows all the names of those who will be saved. Every saved person is known to God before they make the decision.

If your decision is already decided for you, who made the decision? Did you make it, or was it just destiny?

God, the God that I serve, knows everyone in this world better than they know themselves.

Have you ever started a sentence, and had someone who knows you really well finish the sentence for you? Because they knew what you were going to say before you said it? Well, God knows you better than that. In fact, He knows you SO well, that he not only knows what you're going to say, but also the outcome of EVERY decision you are going to make in your life.

Does this mean you are not in control of your own life? Of course not! Knowing what you will do does not make it someone else controlling you. You still are doing what you decide, He just knew that you would decide to do it before you did. He's that big.

The only person to ever walk this Earth with full knowledge of where he was heading in life, and what would happen, is Jesus Christ, and he was for not changing it. He wanted the story to go the way it was foretold, and do everything he was supposed to. Everyone else, however, has no idea where they're going to be in the next five minutes. Sure, you could make a decision to leave work, and go out and get a new job. But God knew I would be writing this article, that you would be reading it right now, and how you would react to it. You can't fool him, or mess up his plan - it's laid in such a way that he even knows how people will respond to his movement on Earth.

So, yeah, your fate is sealed. Absolutely. But not because someone else decided it for you - you decide what that fate will be. But God already knows what that final decision will be.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Aug 03, 2007
JYTHIER POSTS:
So, I think He could not have just made people who loved Him - but He could make SOME people who loved Him out of a multitude of people. A percentage. So that's what He did.


Do you really think Almighty God's act of creation of humans is about percentages? I don't.

As for this:
I think that might be part of the reason it was worth it to God to create life. It was for HIS glory. To improve the quality of HIS existence.


Jythier surely you know better. There is NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever about man that improves upon the quality of God's existence.

God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next. As the created one, our duty, responsibility and obligation is to Him, our Creator.

We cannot know God without being moved to love Him; we cannot love Him without serving Him. The knowledge and love of GOd and what He expects of us is therefore the most important thing that can possibly claim the attention of man, not the other way around.
on Aug 03, 2007
Dr Guy Posts:
Again, until a deed is done, it is not a fact, and there is nothing to "know".


Yep, this is another way of saying that knowledge doesn't cause an event, rather the event causes knowledge.

on Aug 03, 2007
Ah, stop your sniveling and step up to the plate and take responsbility for your own choosing or not choosing.


I beg your pardon, you impertinent twit? This is a child of God you're talking to. How dare you?
on Aug 03, 2007
I beg your pardon, you impertinent twit? This is a child of God you're talking to. How dare you?


Answer: You're self-righteous. (but since thinking isn't sanctioned by the church, all is well...carry on.)
on Aug 03, 2007
"God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next."

And that didn't improve the quality of His existence?
on Aug 03, 2007
"God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next."

And that didn't improve the quality of His existence?


No, God is Infinitely Perfect from the getgo, and always was and will be...in my view, we humans add nothing to improve the quality of His existence.

I think I'm having trouble with your use of the word "improve" in God's case. How can anything, especially having to do with mankind, "improve" God?
on Aug 03, 2007
OCKhamsrazor Posts
This is a child of God you're talking to.


This is good to know.
on Aug 03, 2007
KFC, could you please refer me to some scriptures that show predestination? I am interested to see what this Bible of mine says about it. I looked at John 1, but it was in the Message Remix which isn't really great for scripture study...


I haven't read all the replies here so forgive me if I'm repeating anyone.

I did read what Doc said about God not knowing what we'll do and this is what I'd refer him to in John 2:24-25:

But Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men. And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

He knew exactly what they were going to do. He knew exactly who would betray him as we see in scriptures in the upper room. Is it I Lord? Remember that? What did Jesus do? He dipped the bread and handed it to Judas.

We see the first mention of Christ coming to redeem man in Gen 3:15 right there in the garden. God knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and he planned a restitution for them. Elsewhere in scripture it says Christ was chosen to give his life for a ransom from the foundation of the world. God is indeed all knowing. Otherwise he wouldn't be God. To say otherwise is not to put him where he belongs and instead elevate man where he shouldn't be.

Here's just the tip of the iceburg for you Jythier:

For whom He did FORENOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom HE did PREDESTINATE them he also CALLED them He also justified and whom He justified them He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30.

According as HE HAS chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL. Eph 1:4-5.

Ephesians 1 & 2 are good chapter for this. In 1:4 (mentioned above) you see the Father chooses. In 1:7 we see the Son redeems and in 1:13 the Holy Spirit seals.

In 2:1 you see that WE ALL are born dead in our sins inherited from Adam. But it says that he "quickens" us. That's when we become alive to him. It's He who regenerates. We can not give birth to ourselves. Life comes from life and if we're born dead (spiritually) how does this happen? Read John Chap 3...you must be born again said Jesus.

It's only a hard concept because we make it hard.
on Aug 03, 2007
We're not improving God. But if it's the same to Him to have us or not to have us around, why did He create us? From my completely human tiny mind, I say it's NOT the same to Him.
on Aug 03, 2007
But Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men. And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

He knew exactly what they were going to do. He knew exactly who would betray him as we see in scriptures in the upper room. Is it I Lord? Remember that? What did Jesus do? He dipped the bread and handed it to Judas.


That clearly is a matter of interpretation. Leaving Judas and Jesus out of this for the moment, I read that passage differently.

He knows what is in man, as does man for the most part. The ability to do good and evil. But knowing what we are going to do before we do or even before we commit to it? Sorry, that goes against my understanding of free will. I cannot accept or believe that since that would mean my choices are predetermined, and indeed, I have no free will - just an appearance of it.
on Aug 03, 2007
From reading a bit more of the replies there seems to be some confusion here. We do have freewill but our freewill is such that we CAN'T choose God. We are so blind and/or dead spiritually we can't do it. Remember Jesus said.."let the dead bury the dead?"

Paul said:

"There is none righteous, no not one: There is NONE that understands, there is NONE that seeks after God." Romans 3:9-10.

When Adam sinned he lost the title deed to the earth. It was then handed over to Satan who grabbed it away from him. It was only by the Son who redeemed us at the cross that the title deed again changed hands. Sin was defeated. Now, it's only Christ who is worthy to open up the scroll seen in Revelation 5 (a hint to check out my new blog later today). He alone holds this title deed.

Think of freewill this way. Adam and Eve had NO choice to be in that garden. They were in the family of God because God CHOSE them to be there. He breathed life into them and they walked and talked with him. They had a relationship until that one fateful day, they exercised their FREEWILL (after election) to disobey their God. This brought in sin and separation. But they didn't stop being his children. When God killed that animal to clothe them (they were naked and ashamed now) it was a picture of the final restitution that would come. This animal sacrifice was only a temporary fix, but it showed that this is how God set up the process. Forgiveness of sin is only done thru remission of blood.

Our children have NO choice when they are born into our family. But once born they have freewill to obey or disobey their parents. When they disobey it doesn't mean they are not part of the family but it sure makes for ugly family gatherings. In the same way as Adam, sinning against one's parents brings separation to the family.

We don't have freewill when it comes to belonging to the Family of God, but once in this family we have freewill to obey or disobey, to love and honor or not. That's where the freewill comes in.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48



on Aug 03, 2007
But knowing what we are going to do before we do or even before we commit to it? Sorry, that goes against my understanding of free will. I cannot accept or believe that since that would mean my choices are predetermined, and indeed, I have no free will - just an appearance of it.


It's not that your choices are predetermined but that GOD KNOWS what you are going to do. That's not the same thing.

When you put candy on the table with kids in the house you KNOW that it will be gone when you get back, right? How does this predetermine the kid's freewill? They can choose not to take that candy if they so desire. You are not messing with their freewill. You just know the outcome.

on Aug 03, 2007
So why do we have all these other people lying around that aren't chosen? What is their purpose, then, KFC? Why doesn't he choose everyone? Because they wouldn't obey? He's chosen some that don't!
on Aug 03, 2007
Why doesn't he choose everyone? Because they wouldn't obey? He's chosen some that don't!


remember what I said about the "why" questions? Read Chap 9 of Romans. Then get back to me. See if that helps.

First we must remember that we were ALL predestined for hell. We were ALL lying in the sea (the world) dead in our sins. God by his mercy and grace started plucking us out of the water so to speak, brings us ashore and blows breath into us (John 3). It's God who regenerates remember. What is grace? Isn't it "unmerited" favor? We didn't deserve it but he gave it anyway. why? Don't know.

Grace is giving us what we DON'T deserve. Mercy is NOT giving us what we DO deserve.

Think about Paul on his way to Damascus. He had no idea what was about to happen, yet he writes in Gal 1 that he was set apart in his mother's womb. So too does Jeremiah say this in Jeremiah 1.

I can't answer the why questions. I can only give you my opinion and that's not good enough.

He saves us the same way he saved the Jews in the OT. Somewhere it says, I chose you not because you were bigger or better than the other nations but because I chose to love you and call you out for my name. It's the same with us. He's calling us out for his name. The only thing is...we have no idea who he's calling for sure and who he's not. We will be very surprised when we get to heaven I beieve.

on Aug 03, 2007
It's not that your choices are predetermined but that GOD KNOWS what you are going to do. That's not the same thing.


Yes it is. If god knows, then I have no choice. It is predetermined. Nothing I do is going to change what to god has already happened.

It matters not WHO knows. If the future is set, and that is the only way that God would know, then it is predestination.
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